With regards to aggro-controllish builds... running the KJ/KG combo over the Disciple combo does allow a great deal of extra slots for disruption. I've tested against several builds like this, and for the most part they are as quick as the Disciple builds. They're slightly more fragile, but they have more tools to protect the combo. Duress is pretty huge in protecting the combo before going off.
That said, I'm entertaining myself right now working on a more aggro-controlish Ubg Flash list that runs the more compact combo, with a fully transformational sideboard into Tog. I run Duress, FoW, and Daze in the maindeck. When confronted with Dedicated-Flash-Hate.dec, I side out all the combo pieces for Togs, AK's, and FoF's. I'm not sure how effective this tactic will be in a tournament setting, but it's funny as hell in testing.
The reason i've been running the comandeers main deck is that as of now; im ONLY facing hulk mirror. No joke, all the time on mws and all my friends built a deck; since it was cheap as hell (in the money sense) and broken. If the metagame settels down from the dust ill run the comandeer in the side of course but as of now i'm only seeing hulk flash out there.
You know what someone should test the deck against, for kicks and perspective? Trix, with Necro.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Heh. And a bunch of Vintage decks. Hulk Flash can hang in vintage.
Originally Posted by majikal
So what is Flash's legality as of right now? The fated day has come...and I'm not hearing anything. Did Wizards issue any statement or did they just not say anything?
I actully see this thing as something closer to Dragon, although, you know, without the whole thing called weaknesses.
Rastadon - I haven't heard anything yet.... dammit
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
So i don't know if this came up at all i thought i read the whole thread but there is a lot of it. Has anyone considered some kind of X Stompy shell against this that has City of Traitors, Ancient tomb. This allows ofr chalices at focal point including early at 0. One before the FS legality switch and 2 after that. You also could play aven mindcensor in this build as early as turn 1. It could include children of korliss as another early option against the combo and eventually these creatures plus some other lock components are gonna beat through the deck. It isn't even that bad against the field, especially if it was either a UW stompy deck or an angel Stax like deck, not great but at least some kinda frame we can work from.
I already tried it with Junk Pile, which ended up needing to get into either Blue or Black to run Unmask or Force and still was roughly 50/50 with massive hate.
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
The deck is legal. Period. Nothing is being done to change Flash back to the way it was. At absolute best you might get a banning on June 1st. More likely you won't see anything done about it until December.
This is a very large elephant in the room and it's getting hard not to talk about anymore. Start tweaking your decks. Start stocking up on Children of the Korlis, Trickbind, Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, and company.
*Sigh* Looks like i built TES for nothing -_-
Yeah, I've tested all manner of hate decks against various Flash builds. Firest and foremost: if you're not running black or blue, you cannot win. It's that simple. Even if you made a mono-white deck with Chrome Moxen, Children of Korlis, True Believer, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Mother of Runes, Glowrider, and Aven Mindcensor, (which I did) you cannot win. First of all, Out of all those cards, only Mindcensor and Samurai affect all versions of the deck. True Believer, Children, and the rest are 100% useless against the Karmic Guide combo. Secondly, prepared Flash players side in Massacre and destroy you.
Even dedicated black disruption decks running Duress, Therapy, Hymn, Ritual, Hyppie, and Leylines in the board don't have a positive matchup against the more controlling builds.
In fact, the only deck I've tested so far which has a positive matchup against it is UW Fish, tuned to beat Flash specifically, and even then Flash can steal wins. I haven't tested IGG or Thresh against it, so I can't speak to those matchups.
Well, I happen to think UWb Fish without any changes to the current build designed to beat Goblins would still do well vs Hulk Flash.
If the deck stays legal, I think U/B Tog would be very strong deck against it. So at the least, Hulk Flash brings in 1 new viable deck for all the decks it makes unviable.
Do some testing against builds running the more compact combo in favor of Duress, Daze, Serum Visions, etc. The more combo-controllish version of the deck is about a turn slower and 10 times more resilient to disruption.
I was fooling around on MTGO testing my block deck. I got bored and started watching some matches while I was talking to Noobslayer on AIM about Hulk Flash. In the game I was watching one of the players used Hide/Seek (seek) to search his opponent's deck for Angel of Despair, gaining 8 life. Its interesting because if used against Flash it can eliminate one of the 4 Hulks and possibly put you out of damage range (from the Disciple kill anyway).
Btw, doesn't the Kiki + Carion Feeder + Karmic Guide combo require you to go off on your own turn before the combat step? Doesn't Orim's Chant with Kicker, fog, moments peace, STP and other removal spells make it very hard to go off?
and In that situation wouldn't running Zantid Swarm or something make sense?
Also Portent >>>> Serum Visions since it makes drawing the creature combo less likely (karmic Guide, Kiki, feeder). Shuffling is also tech.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
The Disciple version can do 28 damage pretty consistently. And I suspect you'll see a lot of non-Disciple Flash combo at the GP.
StP is a non-issue if you know what you're doing. Chant and Fog work, but only for a turn. You can always just attack the following turn. And remember, we're talking about builds that typically protect the combo with Duress and multiple Daze/FoWs in hand before going off.Btw, doesn't the Kiki + Carion Feeder + Karmic Guide combo require you to go off on your own turn before the combat step? Doesn't Orim's Chant with Kicker, fog, moments peace, STP and other removal spells make it very hard to go off?
I'd love to share a list, but mine has borrowed tech which I've promised not to divulge.
this deck is going to make columbus suck balls (in a bad way)...seriously though...
Well, I guess I'll finally give in and add my 2 cents worth. I'm not going to get to play personally anytime soon anyway.
This is how I have the kill combo set up for a Reanimator version of this deck, which I had ready the week before Kaddy's DLD. Note that the numbers are a little funny, because, as it was based on reanimator instead of Flash, the Feeder and the enchantments were already part of the decklist, and didn't originally count as part of the kill:
Kill:
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Karmic Guide
1 Academy Rector
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
Kill, but also part of the set-up:
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
SB: 1 Vigilant Martyr
This was the plan after sacrificing Hulk somehow:
Hulk dies -> Academy Rector, Benevolent Bodyguard, Carrion Feeder
Sac Rector -> Animate Dead -> reanimate Hulk
Sac Hulk -> Karmic Guide, Carrion Feeder #2 if necessary
KG trigger -> reanimate Hulk
Sac Hulk -> Kiki-Jiki. Go off, with Bodyguard protection on board, in addition to any counters in hand.
The weak link is the Karmic Guide. This is why Sylan Safekeeper is not very useful, because, if you have to make the Guide untargetable, KJ's copy ability can't target it , and you will have to wait until your next upkeep to go off. On the other hand Benevolent Bodyguard is protection against practically everything except Instant GY removal, Red Burn, Sudden Shock, and, if the opponent has the mana, Wipe Away. BB is as weak as Sylvan Safekeeper against red attacks, because of the pro-red issue. I would bring in Vigilant Martyr in place of Bodyguard against burn decks.
In a reanimator deck, the lone Academy Rector not only facilitates getting the protection, it also mitigates the concern of drawing the Karmic Guide too early, as you can discard it and Hulk->Rector->Animate Dead the Guide into play at the appropriate time. I also kept trying to squeeze in one Putrid Imp to fetch, to guarantee a discard outlet at combo time, but it wasn't necessary most of the time.
My current list is a mix of Flash + Reanimator, but it's not quite as fast as the pure Flash decks, because of the need to include discard outlets. On the other hand, it has more disruption, ie Cabal Therapy, etc.
If Flash gets banned, the this deck still has some life, but if they pull the plug on the Hulk, well - there are still some uses... I can't give away all my lame-o tech at once, can I?
The KJ/KG/CF requires you to attack, so you are mostly correct. It also makes Xantid Swarm terrible for this combo kill.
I figure I might as well share the Unicorn tech Godzilla was talking about.
Team Unicorn has been wondering for a while why people would run the Disciple kill. It requires 20 total slots just for the combo. That's so much wasted space! The Kiki-Jiki kill is slightly better, but is vulnerable to creature removal as well. That's why Team Unicorn is proudly sponsoring as it's official kill condition for Hulk-Flash...
Brothers Yamakazi.
That's right. Two 4/3 Hasty mo-fos. They're just making their way- the only way they know how. Going to block with a Mongoose? Why, sure, I guess I'll- OH SNAP THEY GET +1/+1 FROM BUSHIDO! GG, n00b!
The best part about this kill condition is that it circumvents Hum of the Radix hate.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
If I buy and mail you Alpha Grizzley Bears, will you sign them for me?
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Sure.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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