[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[overlord95]

I figure I might as well share the Jack tech Godzilla was talking about.

Jack Elgin has been wondering for a while why people would run the Disciple kill. It requires 20 total slots just for the combo. That's so much wasted space! The Kiki-Jiki kill is slightly better, but is vulnerable to creature removal as well. That's why Jack Elgin is proudly sponsoring as it's official kill condition for Hulk-Flash...


Brothers Yamakazi.

That's right. Two 4/3 Hasty mo-fos. They're just making their way- the only way they know how. Going to block with a Mongoose? Why, sure, I guess I'll- OH SNAP THEY GET +1/+1 FROM BUSHIDO! GG, n00b!

The best part about this kill condition is that it circumvents Hum of the Radix hate.

Edited for correctfulldidness.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Edited for correctfulldidness.

You're a douche. Give me back Pile so that I can never let you borrow it again.

[overlord95]

You're a douche. Give me back Pile so that I can never let you borrow it again.

HAHA, play nice just remember who still has it.

[Drathro]

Two 4/3 Hasty mo-fos.

Wow, and here I thought that winning the same turn as going off was a good idea. I'm such a n00b.

Way to derail any serious discussion, Jack.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I feel a sense of accomplishment.

Seriously, what serious discussion? This entire thread has been nothing but a circle jerk of people shouting out ideas over one another, posting decklists and borderline flames and ignoring anything anyone else says. Twenty two pages in, what productive conclusions have been drawn? It's all idle speculation and frantic screaming, interrupted occasionally by people posting strictly sub-par alternative kills.

[Lego]

This is a very large elephant in the room and it's getting hard not to talk about anymore. Start tweaking your decks. Start stocking up on Children of the Korlis, Trickbind, Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, and company.

Probably bad advice. Instead, start stocking up on Flash, Protean Hulk, and Disciple of the Vault

[Zilla]

Seriously, what serious discussion? This entire thread has been nothing but a circle jerk of people shouting out ideas over one another, posting decklists and borderline flames and ignoring anything anyone else says. Twenty two pages in, what productive conclusions have been drawn? It's all idle speculation and frantic screaming, interrupted occasionally by people posting strictly sub-par alternative kills.

I dunno. I feel that as far as total clusterfucks go, this one has been pretty productive.

[Drathro]

I'm sure I shouldn't even bother to respond but...

Seriously, what serious discussion? ...people posting strictly sub-par alternative kills.

Well, I was being serious when I presented a framework to protect an alternate kill conditon.
Is it sub-par? Probably ... but maybe the extra deck slots can be used as extra protection, should the metagame adjust to the deck (I'm not saying it will, or even if it can, just...maybe). Maybe the build with fewer kill cards in it's sub-par combo can run it's own Leyline of the Void for the Mirror match? Who knows? It could be important to somebody. Maybe it's important to me.

I think it's worth it to test alternate possibilies. Part of innovation is thinking outside the box. You don't like where I went with my idea? Tell me why. Is the thread just full of flames and useless posts? Come out and say it. Throwing up a snide comment for your own amusement only contributes to the "frantic screaming" that you lament.

[Tacosnape]

Probably bad advice. Instead, start stocking up on Flash, Protean Hulk, and Disciple of the Vault

My statement assumed that everyone who had read this thread has already bought the deck.

[Pandora]

This deck is quite the screwball to throw into the metagame right before a GP, but I'm wondering if a big deal is being made over it for nothing. I've goldfished a pre-FS version of it about 30 times and had a majority of turn 1-3 kills so I know it's good, but do you honestly think that anyone who doesn't read these forums (or tmd/scg) knows 'what's going one?' The 'zomg' factor of the deck is mostly relegated to a small but dedicated portion of the online community, and I have a feeling that only half the people out there will have gotten the Hulk Flash memo. That isn't to say that I won't at least try the deck (unfortunately I won't be able to play in the trial), but I think that a lot of people are going a bit overboard in their reaction - Goblin decks playing md Leyline of the Void? While it'll likely make up a large portion of the GP metagame it won't be the only deck there. Personally, I was excited to finally get a chance to play Aluren, but it seems that it may not be the best choice.

That said, what mana-bases seem to be working? I've been going with the non-Gemstone Caverns route so far, but I can definitely see the benefits of speeding up combo if you expect the mirror match.

[noobslayer]

The combo in general so far has been better with caverns for two reasons:

1. You get to use your tutors and draw before your own turn, so you are effectively not wasting a draw step.

2. Turn 1 Flash.

Although these are very obvious, I just think it should be said, I'd be hesitant to run the deck without Caverns at this point.

[nightshade81]

New Combo peace for Kiki Hulk

Hulk for:
+ Volrath's Shapeshifter
+ Carrion Feeder
+ Benevolent Bodyguard

Then continue the combo now you have protection from Swords and can bring in answers for the sideboard.

Can now get around Plauge/Pithing Needle and others w/ the board.

Monk Realist
Gorilla Shaman
Nantuko Husk

EDIT (agian):
One other alternative kill is
Hulk for:
+ Volrath's Shapeshifter
+ Carrion Feeder
+ Disciple of the Vault
+ Sylvan Safekeeper
+ Shield Sphere

Sac Shapeshifter for:
+ Academy Rector -> Enduring Renewal

[Rood]

The power of this combo is amazing...I hope that if Wizards keeps this combo then I ask wtf is Worldgorger doing on the banned list....oh wait haha that's right the combo is too "broken"....at least you can stop it somewhat...this combo is just grosse. XD

[Tacosnape]

Rofl. I just made someone on Workstation quit Legacy.

I played against his Enchantress deck six games with Hulk Flash, killing him on turns 3, 2, 0, 0, 1, and 1. In annoyance he announced he was changing decks, so we shuffled up and rolled. He rolled a 17 to my 6.

He was now playing some UBW (Or maybe just UB) Fish deck. His opening hand was Polluted Delta, Dark Confidant, Stifle, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Force of Will, Force of Will.

My hand was Gemstone Caverns, Summoner's Pact, Protean Hulk, Shifting Wall, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, Flash.

So I went Gemstone Caverns pitching the Wall, Pact for ESG, Flash. He Forced, I pacted. He Forced again, I pacted again. GG. Then he delivered the gem quote "That's fucking gayer than penis swordfighting." and proceeded to rant about how he was never playing Legacy again.

I hope this wasn't anyone on here and sorry if it was.

EDIT: This deck really lends credence to the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the game." It applies here. Don't hate us for playing the most broken deck ever made. Hate Wizards for giving us the choice between that or losing.

SECOND EDIT: Who in god's name dreamed up the concept of Penis Swordfighting? Has anyone actually ever done this? And how do you keep score? ...Actually, nevermind. I don't want to know how you keep score.

[Aggro_zombies]

EDIT: This deck really lends credence to the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the game." It applies here. Don't hate us for playing the most broken deck ever made. Hate Wizards for giving us the choice between that or losing.

Actually, I think Academy.dec and Long.dec might give this a run for its money in terms of sheer brokeness. Anyone wanna test with me? I've got Academy on MWS.

[laststepdown]

Actually, I think Academy.dec and Long.dec might give this a run for its money in terms of sheer brokeness. Anyone wanna test with me? I've got Academy on MWS.

Can Academy win on its upkeep?
What promotes having the priority to cast Flash on turn 0...then again, WoTC made all this 'turn 0' nonsense happen for a reason. You can FoW turn 0, stopping someone from winning, and now can WIN on turn 0 without your opponent casting Spoils of the Vault and flipping 20 cards over/19 and a fetch/whatever. The format should adjust. Goblins has been at top tables for years now, and no one minds...a new combo deck comes in the headlights...and we're flipping out? I say embrace the new Tier 1...banning it would just force us to live in Tier 2. Instead, print NEW FUN EXCITING CARDS. This combo is not possible without Protean Hulk, and I'm sure they had to have seen it coming.

"Zvi, what can this thing get,"
"Well. Remember Phyrexian Marauder? You shouldn't have printed 8 of them."

To say they didn't know about this before Future Sight's pacts(namely the green one, giving 8 Hulks at instant speed...we already had free counters honestly with daze and FoW...) were printed has to be false. I don't think the problem is Flash here. It's Protean Hulk...and to see Infernal Tutor(from the same set) make top 8 at GenCon '06 then Hulk this year to potentially make top 8 at GP Columbus, why ban it? Iggy Pop didn't distort the format when it broke out, neither did TES(which is probably the better-oiled machine). I know we're all in a panic. Those that have done the testing know...now take it to tournaments and find out. That's the only way we'll know.

[Ninj4]

I remember when ichorid was first introduced to the extended format at the end of '05. this sounds a lot like it except they sucked it up and adapted. Extended became one of hte most skill intensive formats in awhile last time it was around.

While this deck is powerful, i think you guys are overreacting just a little bit. You have nearly every card at your disposal, there should be answers. Give the metagame some time to adapt and when it doesn't, then panic.

right now i think everyone is mostly pissed because it shifted so quickly before a major tournament rather than how powerful the deck is. Even then, for the GP the deck isn't happening in its degenerate form, there aren't pacts yet.

[Volt]

Bah. I don't care who knew what when, or who could have, should have, or may have seen such and such coming. Whatever.

Also, as Zilla has said multiple times, people should stop trying to equate this deck with Goblins. There really is no comparison. This isn't a simple case of a deck taking it's place in the Tier 1. This deck is the Tier 1. And the Tier 2. There is Hulk Flash, and there is everything else trailing way behind.

I'm all for innovation and shaking up the format and all that. I dislike the implication that the people complaining about this deck are just afraid of change or something. That's not it at all. I just don't want to play in a format where my choices are a) Play Hulk Flash, or b) Get crushed. And let's be clear, those are in fact the only choices. Actually, I take it back. There's a third choice. Quit Legacy.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Even without flash you could use Footsteps of the Goryo/Necromancy to set up this combo with hulk.... Obviously the deck would lose alot of power, but it could still work without flash.

[Ninj4]

I'm not implying that the people who are complaining about the deck are afraid of change, I'm saying they don't like the fact they've wasted all their work preparing for the GP.

Also, I wasn't talking about "who knew what when, or who could have, should have, or may have seen such and such coming". I'm talking about what actually happened in the past. Pay attention to recent history as it helps with determining what should be done for the future. Ichorid seems to be the best example to pull from in history as it was hte last time an entire metagame was trounced by one deck that couldn't be stopped by the traditional means. This happens to be another one of them.

You may dislike impolications that people are complaining blah blah blah, then again I dislike radicals (which is what this thread is becoming full of).what does it matter? nothing in the long run.

Volt, were you the one that was thinking about cancelling your trip to Columbus? I mean yes its expensive, and yea you don't want to waste it, but what if everyone did that? This format would not grow. at all. I don't want to convince you otherwise because it IS expensive and its your money but the notion at its base is kinda childish isn't it? kinda like the notion of quitting legacy. I mean, at least try to deal with it using the tools that you have before going to someone higher up to fix it for you, its one of hte fundamental rules in the workplace.

Again, I don't mean it as an insult in anyway, its just the radicalism in what a lot of people are saying that are vexing. Instead of running around proclaiming the end of a format and coming up with insane hate decks, people should start looking towards tweaking current decks to beat it. Sure, some decks may become invalidated but that's always going to happen. It just took forever for Legacy to shift its metagame.