[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[Goblin Snowman]

People please stop crying. Oh noes my deck that cost 400$ gets owned by a 50$ deck. About time for a change.

You don't seem to understand what's happened. There are going to be two playable decks, Hulk Flash and a U/B/X Fish deck that beats Hulk Flash. Maybe some other fast combo, but that's all I see happening. This deck is going to be banned come June, but for the GP Wizards decided that 1.5 needed a brand new metagame.

[Drathro]

Just to add credence to the hysteria:

One of the possible hate cards I've seen people suggest seems to fit into every single deck (that has the ability to fit in 8 new cards):

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void

Any deck can fit that, regardless of the color of the deck.

...[snip]...

Very distorting for the metagame, but salvagable.

The way you put this reminded me of when they banned Skullclamp:

In an article by Aaron Forsythe:
Skullclamp was banned in Standard, frankly, because it was everywhere. Every competitive deck either had four in the main deck, had four in the sideboard, or was built to try and defend against it. And there were a lot more successful decks in the first two categories than in the third. Such representation is completely unhealthy for the format. Your deck has to either have Skullclamps, or have Skullclamp in its crosshairs—a definitive case of a card “warping the metagame.”

Food for thought.

[Meeee]

You don't seem to understand what's happened. There are going to be two playable decks, Hulk Flash and a U/B/X Fish deck that beats Hulk Flash. Maybe some other fast combo, but that's all I see happening. This deck is going to be banned come June, but for the GP Wizards decided that 1.5 needed a brand new metagame.

Your forgotting the deck that preys on the fish decks something like Goblins or another fast deck thats not to vulnerable to anti flash cards.

[UrDraco]

People please stop crying. Oh noes my deck that cost 400$ gets owned by a 50$ deck. About time for a change.

I have yet to see a person complain about being beat by a cheap deck. The problem is getting beat by a degenerate deck. The deck isn't cheap by the way, last I checked a set of Force of Will is going to cost you over $50 bucks. I am pissed off at this deck because I have been preparing for the GP for at least 6-9 months and this deck is going to completely shift the meta, making all of the work I have done useless. There are countless rouge decks out there which were prepared for the Goblins-Thresh meta that simply cannot be played because of this broken, faster and more resilient than dragon, easy to pilot, typo of a deck.

I know that wizards has a process for banning cards. I feel that under normal circumstances Flash should be given a chance to prove itself broken without the power level errata, but these are not normal circumstances. I am also very sure than if given the chance other power level errata cards have been given, it would be banned in a month, but this is not the month to do this.

One of the beauty's of Legacy is that you can go entire tournaments without playing against the same deck twice. Sure one of those decks is going to be goblins and another is going to be thresh, but it is 10000 times more varied than standard and extended combined. Flash is going to make this format worse than standard during the days of affinity or the combo summer with academy. All less than 3 weeks before our third GP ever. Needless to say this sucks, but it is NOT because the deck seems less expensive.

[noobslayer]

My largest question, is even though we don't have a number of results yet from tournaments, is why haven't we moved this to something other than N&D? It's rather evident at this point as to what it's capable of.

[ACME_Myst]

There don't seem to be any 1cc creatures that will work for this purpose.. . at least not that I found.

Also, my particular hope was that you could bring in Stern Proctor to deal with a Pithing Needle, but Shifter(cmc 3) + Proctor(cmc 2) + Feeder(cmc 1) maxes out the Hulk, so a hypothetical 1CC creature which removed a card in the graveyard wouldn't fit anyway.

Yeah, I was also wondering about how to get rid of Pithing Needle/Supression Field, for the 3 creature combo. Here's what I came up with:

kill hulk, get:
{karmic guide, accursed centaur}
with guide trigger, return hulk

sac hulk to centaur trigger
with hulk trigger, get:
{wormfang drake, carrion feeder, stern proctor}

with stern, bounce P. Needle/Sup. Field

with drake, remove karmic guide
sac drake to feeder
return guide, with guide trigger, return hulk
sac hulk to feeder

with hulk trigger, get:
{kiki-jiki}

now, do the standard 3 card combo routine.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's definitely a "OnoesTheSkyisFalling!" contingent of Magic that hated the new card frames and Equipment and Human as a subtype and constantly threaten to quit the game.

In addition to the Chicken Littles, however, there are also the Uncle Toms, who will endure any stupid fucking decision Wizards makes with good grace, and constantly assure themselves and everyone else that Wizards must know what's best and every decision that Wizards makes must be the best one.

There were a ton of people arguing for ages that Skullclamp was balanced in Type 2. Despite all evidence to the contrary, they really refused to believe that anything needed to be done to change the very degenerate environment.

Ditto to Flash. I'm not freaking out, I'm not hysterical here, but it's simply a fact that this combo is far too powerful and far too easy for Legacy. It warps the power level and the environment to an alarming degree. I don't expect emergency bannings, which means I need to pull out a hate deck, but the card will definitely be banned June 1st after dominating the top 8 at the GP.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

All these decks require more than one action. Flash is a ONE CARD COMBO, that has never existed in magic before.

Small point, but Dragon was a one card combo(the card being Bazaar).

I don't think people should let up on the e-mails, by the way. The only way they'll institute an emergency ban to try to salvage the format is if people constantly and intelligently complain. There needs to be a very vocal public response for them to take action.

To reiterate, if you haven't emailed anyone at Wizards, complaining, please do so. Assuming you have an interest in keeping the format healthy.

[Volt]

Ditto to Flash. I'm not freaking out, I'm not hysterical here, but it's simply a fact that this combo is far too powerful and far too easy for Legacy. It warps the power level and the environment to an alarming degree. I don't expect emergency bannings, which means I need to pull out a hate deck, but the card will definitely be banned June 1st after dominating the top 8 at the GP.

Yeah, it's just a matter of many T8 slots it's going to take. 4? 5? More? After Flash (or possibly Hulk) gets banned, there will be a contingent of whiners who will protest the unfairness of it all, saying the deck is "powerful, but not unbalanced," blah blah blah. Oh, and the flawed Goblins comparison will be trotted out ad nauseum between now and then.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Yeah, it's just a matter of many T8 slots it's going to take. 4? 5? More? After Flash (or possibly Hulk) gets banned, there will be a contingent of whiners who will protest the unfairness of it all, saying the deck is "powerful, but not unbalanced," blah blah blah. Oh, and the flawed Goblins comparison will be trotted out ad nauseum between now and then.

Don't forget Ichorid, Affinity, Long, or whatever else.

Because of how often Ichorid wins on turn 0, dontcha know.

I'd like to respect people's opinions, but I really think the people saying that this combo isn't destructive for the format are either stupid, argumentitive, or have some pet deck they think will benefit from the changes. Or a combination of the above.

There are some things you just deal with and learn to adapt to. Lackey, for instance.

But when a combo deck can go off with one card for two mana with counter back up, well fuck, why ban anything? Why not just take Yawgmoth's Will and Ancestral Recall and Bazaar and Tinker off the banned list too? It'll be one big fucking fiesta.

[Drathro]

Yeah, I was also wondering about how to get rid of Pithing Needle/Supression Field, for the 3 creature combo. Here's what I came up with:

kill hulk, get:
{karmic guide, accursed centaur}
with guide trigger, return hulk

sac hulk to centaur trigger
with hulk trigger, get:
{wormfang drake, carrion feeder, stern proctor}

with stern, bounce P. Needle/Sup. Field

with drake, remove karmic guide
sac drake to feeder
return guide, with guide trigger, return hulk
sac hulk to feeder

with hulk trigger, get:
{kiki-jiki}

now, do the standard 3 card combo routine.

Nice outside-the-box thinking. It certainly has potential. I don't like that it has a large window of susceptibility to taregted removal, but that's the price you pay for having a smaller kill suite - you open yourself to more hate, and you have to rely on counters in hand.

Honestly, the biggest problem permanent will be Leyline of the Void, which is why tutoring for bounce is probably a better answer than this.

[Finn]

I think a lot of folks posting about this may not be considering the larger issue. There may be a nice silver lining.

New, young, and naive players really like broke-ass decks. As much as I refuse to play a deck I didn't design, I had to build Academy. Before that, I really wanted to experience Rack/Balance. The first deck I pursued was 10 Forests, 15 Elves/Scryb Sprites, 7 Giant Growths, and 8 Berserks. Etc. Legacy does not tend to get many young players or those new to Magic.

If the GP goes haywire with all these stupid decks duking it out on day two, so be it. Legacy will be in the public eye for weeks or months afterward. "What exactly happened?", "How does it work?", "This isn't banned?", etc. Everyone will want to try the deck out. And they will probably come here looking for it.

Yeah, lots of people spent time and perhaps money preparing. So what? Roll with it, and take part in one of the biggest fiascos in the game's history as a willing participant. The format is eternal and will be here next year.

[CalebD]

My largest question, is even though we don't have a number of results yet from tournaments, is why haven't we moved this to something other than N&D? It's rather evident at this point as to what it's capable of.

Because the deck is still new, and it's still in development?

[noobslayer]

I think that's a cop out answer. We have basic shell, and most iterations of the deck are putting up near identical results... which is an average turn two win, with about half the time having counter back-up.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Discussion ought to move to the LMF. Anyone who's actually playtested with the deck has some idea of what kind of metagame catastrophe we're looking at here.

[Jaynel]

This is certainly the best deck that's come out of N/D in a while. I also consider this deck a serious threat to any metagame and the format.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Yeah, I've tested all manner of hate decks against various Flash builds. Firest and foremost: if you're not running black or blue, you cannot win. It's that simple. Even if you made a mono-white deck with Chrome Moxen, Children of Korlis, True Believer, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Mother of Runes, Glowrider, and Aven Mindcensor, (which I did) you cannot win. First of all, Out of all those cards, only Mindcensor and Samurai affect all versions of the deck. True Believer, Children, and the rest are 100% useless against the Karmic Guide combo. Secondly, prepared Flash players side in Massacre and destroy you.

Even dedicated black disruption decks running Duress, Therapy, Hymn, Ritual, Hyppie, and Leylines in the board don't have a positive matchup against the more controlling builds.

In fact, the only deck I've tested so far which has a positive matchup against it is UW Fish, tuned to beat Flash specifically, and even then Flash can steal wins. I haven't tested IGG or Thresh against it, so I can't speak to those matchups.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel, it's good to know that I won't be playing Legacy for a couple of months. As the God of everything red, I feel dead inside.
>_<

[Tacosnape]

Here's my current post Future Sight build, for those interested.

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Flash
3 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauder
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Research // Development

SB
4 Duress
3 Daze
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Summoner's Egg

The biggest change is the single maindeck Research // Development. Since I'm apparently the God of UG Split Cards in combo decks (Determined in Solidarity and now this.) This does two things.

1. It gives me an out against Extirpate.
2. It gives me an out against anything like Children of Korlis by allowing me to Research the alternate combo.

It's also fetchable by both Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll and can pitch to Force. What more could you ask?

The alternate combo in board allows me to board in between six and ten control slots, depending on whether or not Pact of Negation is necessary to keep. Duress is the 4 instead of Daze in cases of times where I don't face countermagic and want to leave the original combo in but board out Pact of Negation. The single Echoing Truth is there for if they get a Leyline and then a Chalice for 1, I can Research/Merchant Scroll/Echoing Truth in a distant pinch. It can also be boarded in if deemed more necessary than the Chain of Vapor.

[Meeee]

I have played some games against a good threshold player and my initial results with playing the disciple win condition is the first Flash never resolves if you don't have a counter, unless you play it on turn 1 on the play better chance there. The second and third flash have a good shot if you wait for them to be low on mana, like Branstorming EOT or in response to a Fetch, or you draw some good backup on them. Meddling mage is bad times and if they can protect it, its gg. You only have 1-2 bounce spells so it’s not to hard. They can do some racing if they counter an early flash while you have to rebuild. There best chance comes from the fact that all your tutors in Pre-FS are disadvantage tutors although I haven’t tested scroll yet.

To sum up a resolved mage sucks but the rest of the deck is not too bad.

[Anarky87]

With the post FS lists not meaning a fucking thing in terms of the GP, what are the Pre-FS lists looking like? I haven't actually seen any lists for those. If this is "teh uber" deck, than what should it look like in my gauntlet?