[Article] Unlocking Legacy - A History of the Flash Fiasco

[Tom LaPille]

Somebody somewhere decides what the formats should look like.

That person is not you, nor is it anyone who posts on this forum.

[Cait_Sith]

Then why not get rid of formats all together? Why not have one giant cardpool where everything is unrestricted? Somebody somewhere decides what the formats should look like.

It was in a discussion on this very topic that I got my "Utterly ViLE" moniker, ViLe being the first to Letters of VIntage and LEgacy put together.

I have seen a surprisingly large amount of arguments for giving Legacy a banned AND a restricted list, but the problem is can anyone show me 5 cards on don't benefit combo massively, or even enable sick combos? Replenish, Mind over Matter... That is all I got, can anyone actually come up with 3 more?

If Wizards decided only to ban Flash and change NOTHING else, then they will have done Legacy no ill. The format is massively diverse and new innovation is constantly appearing. Someone in the N&D forum recently posted good results off a small tournament with a Marit Lage deck, something most people dismissed as unplayable jank. People still work on Fluctuator, the absolute worst fast combo deck in the format. I can still play MUC, Trix, Goblins, Solidarity, TES, Thresh, Rifter, and a host of other decks I like (including one I am working on making now, so PLEASE be banned Flash) without knowing that I am going to automatically lose the tournament because every deck there is a bad match up of some sort.

Also, you say that more people go to Vintage tournaments than Legacy ones. With approximately 10-15 decks that have a decent chance at competition and all of them decks being combo (with a few exceptions), it is easy to predict what is going to happen in a metagame. Playing Legacy means that you have to mentally prepare yourself and your deck for whatever you think will show up. This can require a massive amount of work.

Ex: Last tournament you took Vial Goblins with a White splash and got steam rolled by the prevalence of TES. This time around you know those TES players, who took second and fifth, will be back and will probably bring TES again. Do you bring Goblins when it such a poor match up? Do you hope to luck around them? You could switch decks and bring Red Death instead, but you know Calosso Fuentes will be there and he ALWAYS brings Goblins, so maybe Black splash Vial Goblins instead, or you could sneak 2-3 Maindeck Enginnered Plague, like Deadguy does; you can replace Wretched Anurid since he is terrible against Goblins anyway. The question would then be 2-3 and where would those other 1-2 slots come from? Will there be a prevalence of Goblins? They took 1st (the Black Splash) and 7th last time, so they will be back. Of course, Red Thresh is good vs Goblins and TES, so it could work out well, just as you don't run into the guy playing Wombat (he always plays Wombat in some build or another, so he would take you as a bye).

And that is just the beginning. You can put quite a bit of thought in choosing your deck and are more often than not rewarded with it. This isn't the kind of mental work many people do not like doing. (Also, Legacy can get much more expensive than Vintage due to proxy tournaments. If those were to vanish tomorrow then it is very possible that Legacy tournaments would swell.)

Edit: And neither, Tom LaPille, will it EVER be you. I can tell you who it is, it should be obvious; this format is decided by the ones who put their time and energy into it. Who enjoy it, who nurture it, who work to make it a diverse and healthy existence so that anyone who becomes fed up with the constant unpredictable shifts of Standard and Extended want a play of stability and gentle change can came. WE decide what this format looks like. WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). WE know what we are doing, simply because we are doing it.

[Tom LaPille]

And neither, Tom LaPille, will it NEVER be you. I can tell you who it is, it should be obvious; this format is decided by the ones who put their time and energy into it. Who enjoy it, who nurture it, who work to make it a diverse and healthy existence so that anyone who becomes fed up with the constant unpredictable shifts of Standard and Extended want a play of stability and gentle change can came. WE decide what this format looks like. WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). WE know what we are doing, simply because we are doing it.

You are missing the point. It is obvious to me that Wizards is the one who controls the format. They tell us what cards we can play. You may wish that you could tell other people what they can play, but you can't. Wizards can. Any player who is presumptuous enough to think that they "control" a Magic format is fooling himself.

Also, the first sentence in that quote is hideous, grammatically speaking. I like how you even capitalized the offending word for us.

[kirdape3]

That answer is incorrect. Who determines the shape of the format? The DCI. Unless of course you want unsanctioned events.

In the extraordinarily vast majority of cases, I am wholly convinced that nobody on this site can say 'I know what I'm doing' with regards to Legacy.

[Mad Zur]

The DCI decides what formats should look like, and people who play those formats point it out when they do not look like that. What's wrong with this?

The thing that most Legacy players don't seem to understand is that THIS IS NOT YOUR FORMAT.

What basis do you have for claiming that most Legacy players disagree? Why is this relevant to whether or not Flash should be banned?

[Cait_Sith]

Any player who is presumptuous enough to think that they "control" a Magic format is fooling himself.

"If you follow a fool in his folly, you will be wise." -William Blake

Also, the first sentence in that quote is hideous, grammatically speaking. I like how you even capitalized the offending word for us.

An ad hominem attack based off a typo made at 11:00 EST. Wow, you sure got me.

[mikekelley]

The DCI is stupid and makes stupid mistakes regularly

[Tom LaPille]

Any player who is presumptuous enough to think that they "control" a Magic format is fooling himself.

"If you follow a fool in his folly, you will be wise." -William Blake

What in the blue hell is that supposed to mean?

[Cait_Sith]

The DCI is stupid and makes stupid mistakes regularly

So do all of us. They are lucky enough to have a thousand people screaming out their every mistake so they can see them easily.

Edit: It should be self evident. Mayhaps the wrong one is taking the advice.

[AnwarA101]

However, that's not actually material to my point. The main point that I have is that when something new and broken happens in vintage, the reaction is normally "Man, this is new and crazy and interesting! what happens now?" as opposed to "the format is suddenly awful! someone ban something!"

Basically what I'm saying is, playing a format with a giant card pool leads to some crazy things happening. I don't understand why this is hated rather than embraced.

The problem is that in Vintage these crazy things happen because the cards themselves interact this way. In Legacy, Flash exists because Wizards decided to change the card. That's why Flash exists. Vintage has several decks that have the same power-level that makes playing something like Gifts over Pitch Long acceptable, but that isn't the case in Legacy currently. Flash is actually just better than everything that isn't Flash. That makes this situation different than Vintage. So you are wondering why people aren't excited? Its because this format was basically created by the stroke of someone's pen and not because someone came up with a new deck.

[Volt]

You are missing the point. It is obvious to me that Wizards is the one who controls the format. They tell us what cards we can play. You may wish that you could tell other people what they can play, but you can't. Wizards can. Any player who is presumptuous enough to think that they "control" a Magic format is fooling himself.

I think the point has already been made that while we (the so-called Legacy Community) don't directly control what is and is not on the B/R list, we do have input. We can discuss things publicly and privately, and let the DCI know how we feel about certain cards. Hopefully, they listen, weigh, and consider what we have to say, even if they don't always act on it. Your point seems to be that the DCI is some deific entity that cares not a bit for such peons as we, and that if they give us shit on a plate we should eat it with a smile. And make no mistake, a Hulk Flash dominated metagame is shit on a plate. Sure, it made for an interesting GP and possibly even attracted a few curious newcomers who wondered "I wonder what it's like to eat shit?" or "I wonder what it's like to make other people eat shit?" That's all fine and dandy, but I'll be glad to say "Good riddance!" to Flash when I wake up tomorrow.

[Cait_Sith]

To be fair Anwar, they really didn't except this disaster to happen. They have been removing power level errata on a fair number of cards to no ill effect (some cards once broken are too weak to be playable in Legacy: ex: Palinchron). It can be hard to test all possible interactions and the tech that makes Hulk Flash at its strongest (Kiki kill + Body Snatcher) wasn't discovered for over a week after the deck's inception, despite the deck creating a massive amount of interest.

[Goblin Snowman]

Well, as enlightening as this all is, most of it is just rehashed arguments that we've heard in every Hulk Flash thread. I'm going to state a few things here, that should be obvious to everyone;
1) Legacy isn't the DCI's top concern - Even if we had the most players, we wouldn't be, because they don't control the secondary market.
2) Preventing these situations is what the DCI is there for - What's the point of refusing to ban/unban cards when you can change their wording and make (effectively) whole new cards? (See; Flash, Time Vault, Cloud of Faeries, Grim Monolith). Why is it so hard for them to just change wordings of cards not breaking the format in half at certain times, like, I don't know, June 1st.
3) Yelling at each other about something none of us have any control over seems like a waste of time. Wait until tomorrow, until then, shut up. Don't worry, your E-Penis is not going to run away from you.

This likely isn't remotely grammaticly correct, talk to World of Warcraft about my spelling problems when typing late at night. I'll edit this tomorrow.

[Tom LaPille]

Cait_Sith, I literally have no idea what you were trying to convey with the William Blake quote. Please use your own words, since it is not self-evident at all.

Anwar: Blame Steve Menendian for bringing up the power level errata thing, it's his fault!

To be fair, they were changing the card back, not changing the card. But I understand the gripe. I guess I have felt that the reaction from many people I have seen has been more along the lines of "My god, I can't just play whatever pet deck I have been working on for a year and a half anymore! Ban something!" as opposed to "Flash is a little too good, can we kill it now?" I'm sympathetic to the latter, but I do not respect the former at all. I would classify "Flash makes three of the colors bad," "Flash obliterated the metagame," and "We had a beautiful metagame before but now all the diversity is gone and I am sad" as statements of the former type.

[dre4m]

In the extraordinarily vast majority of cases, I am wholly convinced that nobody on this site can say 'I know what I'm doing' with regards to Legacy.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[Mad Zur]

I guess I have felt that the reaction from many people I have seen has been more along the lines of "My god, I can't just play whatever pet deck I have been working on for a year and a half anymore! Ban something!" as opposed to "Flash is a little too good, can we kill it now?" I'm sympathetic to the latter, but I do not respect the former at all. I would classify "Flash makes three of the colors bad," "Flash obliterated the metagame," and "We had a beautiful metagame before but now all the diversity is gone and I am sad" as statements of the former type.

I disagree. Observing that Flash makes most or all other decks obsolete ("obliterating the metagame", "making three colors bad", or "removing diversity") is the same as observing that Flash is too good. I would classify those as statements of the latter type (though perhaps without the word "slightly").

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You are missing the point. It is obvious to me that Wizards is the one who controls the format. They tell us what cards we can play. You may wish that you could tell other people what they can play, but you can't. Wizards can. Any player who is presumptuous enough to think that they "control" a Magic format is fooling himself.

Also, the first sentence in that quote is hideous, grammatically speaking. I like how you even capitalized the offending word for us.

You don't seem to understand the point of "formats".

The DCI did indeed decide what Legacy would be, when they created it, 2 and a half years ago. Those of us who played then may have had fits with the change from 1.5, but they laid out their vision for what their desired power level was in the format, and what its nature was.

Since you seem to have no understanding of what the intended vision of Legacy is, I suggest you read Mr. Forsythe's original article following the creation of the format.

Some quotes

"But with the impending rotation of the Extended format next year, we felt the need to make sure there was a reasonable format available where players could use their old cards (everything from dual lands to Ice Age cards to Rebels) that was not just a toned-down version of Vintage. We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play."

"Not every card that has ever been banned in Extended is banned in this new format, but we felt the most powerful ones had no place here. These include Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Replenish, and newly exiled Skullclamp and Metalworker. With “1.5” now a little less like Vintage and a little more like Extended, it makes sense that the banned list is a compromise between the two. Most of these cards are very cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against."

What many uninformed people fail to understand(and how could they, when they don't WANT to?) is that there is an acceptable power level for this format. That we DO have a frame of reference to judge what should and shouldn't be in this format.

Flash rapes cards like Replenish and Earthcraft like there's no tomorrow. Defending the card's "fairness" or what it does to the format is pointless because it flies in the face of existing DCI policy.

Vintage is essentially a fight between blue/black decks, artifact decks, and decks that don't spend mana, and it's still interesting. Why couldn't legacy be the same way? In fact, with so many cards and so many potential combos, doesn't it strike you as odd that it wasn't already a fight between blue and black decks? I personally think it's pretty amazing that basic mountains get played in legacy still.

Are you a Pastafarian?

That's all this supposed "inevitability" of blue and black in Legacy is. The argument is in no way based on any valid game theory or proof. It's this mysterious tea kettle floating in the asteroid belt, that only the enlightened people who've never done anything can see.

It's truly amazing.

In the extraordinarily vast majority of cases, I am wholly convinced that nobody on this site can say 'I know what I'm doing' with regards to Legacy.

Well then you'd better sit on your enormous pile of completely relevant and real accomplishments and throw spitwads at the rest of us down below.

Who do you think you are?

[AnwarA101]

Anwar: Blame Steve Menendian for bringing up the power level errata thing, it's his fault!

To be fair, they were changing the card back, not changing the card. But I understand the gripe. I guess I have felt that the reaction from many people I have seen has been more along the lines of "My god, I can't just play whatever pet deck I have been working on for a year and a half anymore! Ban something!" as opposed to "Flash is a little too good, can we kill it now?" I'm sympathetic to the latter, but I do not respect the former at all. I would classify "Flash makes three of the colors bad," "Flash obliterated the metagame," and "We had a beautiful metagame before but now all the diversity is gone and I am sad" as statements of the former type.

I have no problem with idea of removing power-level errata in theory, but the timing was terrible and easily avoidable. Couldn't such changes have been made after Grand Prix, especially considering the fact that Flash had actually been a problem before. Isn't it reasonable to think that it might be a problem again? To me these seem like fairly obvious conclusions any reasonable person could draw about what would happen by making this change to Flash.

Flash deserves to be banned because it becomes the only deck worth playing not because it invalidates any specific deck because it invalidates all of them except Flash .

[Tom LaPille]

He probably thinks he is Rian Litchard. I agree with his assessment. Who are you? I'm Tom LaPille. It's nice to meet you.

That aside, thank you for clarifying where all this vitriol comes from. I didn't realize that they actually set out a vision like that. I think it is a bizarre vision, but I now actually understand why everyone is mad. I guess I just think that it's kind of silly to expect a format to be not hideously warped when you allow almost every card to be played.

If that idea of the format is what they want, then I think they need to go even further to achieve their vision. Were I Wizards, I would probably ban Lion's Eye Diamond as well as Flash. That pretty much puts the kibosh on every really dumb combo deck that makes Legacy stupid after flash, and then you *really* have a format where everyone is fighting fair. I just think that acting as though we have a right to decide that is rather silly.

[Zherbus]

I don't mind crazy combo. I just think it should have a weakness.

Then it isn't really "crazy combo" if it has a weakness. A weakness greater than the ones Flash has, by your definition.

Well then you'd better sit on your enormous pile of completely relevant and real accomplishments and throw spitwads at the rest of us down below.

Who do you think you are?

I don't think he was saying "noone knows how to build, metagame, or play Legacy". I think he was saying that if the B/R list was up to The Source collective, things could get ugly. The same goes for the B/R list for Vintage at TMD... often times the players don't know what's best for them. And most of all, I don't think Rian excludes himself from people on the list.

See? Things don't always have to be so personal. Just like Flash, it's not a slap in the face to "Legacy players" personally. It's more of someone opening the door on you suddenly and nailing you in the nose. Either that someone will apologize for not looking first, or your face was so ugly to begin with that it decides it did no harm.