[DTB] Vial Goblins

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Since I hope and think flash will get the axe, how do you think goblins will survive when combo like CRET belcher and TES are back? They are not vulnerable to Leyline so we really have no answer besides discard. Counters are an option, but you don't want to hold back in an aggro deck for counter mana. What do you guys think is a good build/sideboard?

CotV?

[troopatroop]

Once Flash get's banned (which is undoubtable will), does this look like an opportunity for goblins to destroy the hate decks that people will still be playing?

Basically what I'm saying, How long will it take for people to revert back to the old Goblins infested format?

[Volt]

Once Flash get's banned (which is undoubtable will), does this look like an opportunity for goblins to destroy the hate decks that people will still be playing?

Basically what I'm saying, How long will it take for people to revert back to the old Goblins infested format?

Like, one day.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd have to agree. I haven't seen an anti-flash deck that hasn't rolled to Goblins yet. I know that's the deck I'm going back to once Flash gets axed. People will still be behind on that memo for a little bit I'm sure, but they'll catch on quick. I just hope the rest of the decks show up again too.

[Jak]

Well chalice sometimes is to slow for decks like SI and Belcher. I am sure a lot of people are going to start running more TES and belcher, so just wondering what would happen.

[264505]

Turn 1 Chalice at 0 is the way to go if you're after turning off LED, Chrome mox and lotus petal, but chalilice at 1 is a lot stronger when dealing with decks like SI and belcher, but it is too slow a lot of times. Pyrostatic pillar is also a combo option but it usually doesnt deal enough damage to matter.

[ASSASSIN]

Versus combo calice is really pretty.

VS belcher you can put it in 0 or 1 and it is the better solution with the "new" version with ETW.

VS IGG a calice in 0 cut LED, petal and the U pact. If he begin and put all artifact directly in the table you can put in with one counter and block DR is enjoy too.

I don't test VS TES or other black storm because they are not played in france but I think it is not bad.

VS high tide a calice in 1 kill the deck if he don't use cunning wish for tutorise a ET. He give time for kill or put a pyrostatic pillar.

VS burn a calice in 1 suck because he can't play mogg fanatic, lightning bolt, lava spike, chain lightning and other lava spiker/spark elemental... :D

VS salvager I see in forums calice in 1 is good. In theory he block the first combo and block pyrite spellbomb, innocent blood, CR, DR. But after test it is not usitly. But pyrostatic pillar is really good :)

VS aluren forget calice, take pillar too

After test I'm sure it is, before hulk flash, calice/pillar with 2 REB it is the better response against combo.

and VS hulk ? I don't test but in 0 or 1 (in 2 it is a dream ) he can help, it is sure. But other card in an goblin SB help too VS it. pyrokinesis in karmic and carrion feeder broke the combo but put an immortal 6/6 in game. needle in kiki, tormod's in response of the ability of the first death, a REB in flash.


And it is not goblin why death with the new degenerated combo, it is all the other aggro, all the combo powerless.

And play leyline B in MD is really sad. And with good version in game one we have nothing for help it so HF tutor a bounce and win "only" in the turn 3.

[Tacosnape]

I don't test VS TES or other black storm because they are not played in france but I think it is not bad.

VS salvager I see in forums calice in 1 is good. In theory he block the first combo and block pyrite spellbomb, innocent blood, CR, DR. But after test it is not usitly. But pyrostatic pillar is really good :)

VS aluren forget calice, take pillar too

Chalice is solid against TES. You generally play it for 0 and 2 and skip 1, barring a few circumstances. (TES players, correct me if I'm way off base here.)

Against Salvagers, coming from a long time player of both Goblins -and- Salvagers, Chalice for 1 is the wrong strategy. Chalice for 0 is much faster and shuts the combo off completely, as it denies them the ability to use Lion's Eye Diamond. Plus, if you play the white splash, it still lets you play Swords to Plowshares.

Chalice for 2 can annoy Aluren fairly well (Aluren players, correct me if I'm way off base here), -if- you can get it off before they combo out on you. It stops Harpy replays pretty nicely. Pillar is indeed better here.

[ASSASSIN]

Against Salvagers, coming from a long time player of both Goblins -and- Salvagers, Chalice for 1 is the wrong strategy. Chalice for 0 is much faster and shuts the combo off completely, as it denies them the ability to use Lion's Eye Diamond. Plus, if you play the white splash, it still lets you play Swords to Plowshares.

Chalice for 2 can annoy Aluren fairly well (Aluren players, correct me if I'm way off base here), -if- you can get it off before they combo out on you. It stops Harpy replays pretty nicely. Pillar is indeed better here.

Salvager is a deck why regulary side darksteel colossus and change the combo. So side calice and put it in 0 if your opponant don't keep LED is stupid. calice in 1 block the combo with pyrite and element of control.

Calice in 2 is possible when you play a stack or a Faerie Stompy but with goblin and 21 lands is not the solution against aluren and her kill in turn 3/4.

[Tacosnape]

Salvager is a deck why regulary side darksteel colossus and change the combo. So side calice and put it in 0 if your opponant don't keep LED is stupid. calice in 1 block the combo with pyrite and element of control.

(You know, I don't really know why I'm arguing in this point since I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech, but still)

Chalice for 0 is always the right play against Salvagers whether they kept the combo in or switched it out for Darksteel Colossus. For several reasons:

1. You don't know whether they kept the combo in or not. You're in a lot better shape boarding it in to be safe.

2. Good players won't cut all of their Lion's Eye Diamonds. They'll cut their Salvagers for the DSC's, and then maybe cut LED's for Infest, if they're one of the bad versions of Salvagers that runs Infest.

3. Good players rarely cut their combo against Vial Goblins in the first place. It's easier to Deed away their block pieces than to come through with DSC. Plus, as long as you don't show them a Taiga or Tin-Street in game 1, they won't know you aren't running white and thereby Swords to Plowshares. Also, Gamekeeper/DSC still goes down to Tormod's Crypt, and most Goblin decks pack it. Good Salvagers players know this, so they realize they aren't gaining much with the DSC board.

4. Vial Goblins can outrace Darksteel Colossus more often than not, unless they're a bad version running Infest or get it on the board turn two.

[ASSASSIN]

(You know, I don't really know why I'm arguing in this point since I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech, but still)

Chalice for 0 is always the right play against Salvagers whether they kept the combo in or switched it out for Darksteel Colossus. For several reasons:

1. You don't know whether they kept the combo in or not. You're in a lot better shape boarding it in to be safe.

2. Good players won't cut all of their Lion's Eye Diamonds. They'll cut their Salvagers for the DSC's, and then maybe cut LED's for Infest, if they're one of the bad versions of Salvagers that runs Infest.

3. Good players rarely cut their combo against Vial Goblins in the first place. It's easier to Deed away their block pieces than to come through with DSC. Plus, as long as you don't show them a Taiga or Tin-Street in game 1, they won't know you aren't running white and thereby Swords to Plowshares. Also, Gamekeeper/DSC still goes down to Tormod's Crypt, and most Goblin decks pack it. Good Salvagers players know this, so they realize they aren't gaining much with the DSC board.

4. Vial Goblins can outrace Darksteel Colossus more often than not, unless they're a bad version running Infest or get it on the board turn two.

1. Yes but you can block the combo salvager and help if it is the control version. pyrostatic pillar is the better for than and after calice in 1 help too.

2. Ok may be he don't cut they but are the worst card in the deck without salvager.

3. Goods players know side for you never know if they are side out or no the combo. Salvager is the most sensible combo of the legacy (needle, pyrokinesis, tormod's, calice, pillar, anarchy... I have 13 cards why kill her combo in my sideboard) so salvager's player has not choice : he must use alternative combo for win.

4. I think I don't understand all what you want say. But salvager is a combo-CONTROLE. He are cabal therapy, innocent blood. And he regulary played infest, massacre or pernicious deed in sideboard, with cabal for play it fast. It is really hard to run it, you think about the CA for kill it.

But the better is when you say I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech. When I speack with you I don't hide my techs. If you want keep yours you can but in forums you must divide yours ideas for constructed together a build.
So I say to you in my experience with gob the better solution is really calice/pillar with 2 REB. If you are an other opinion say it completely or don't speack.

[NQN]

I started playing VG because i thought it would be a nice choice in my meta where Fish and NQG are heavy played and Flash won`t change this fact.
So I started testing and tryed to figure out a list that wins agains Flash,Fish,NQG,Solidarity and Mirror. landstill stays a good matchup tough.
So heres my List:
Lands:20
12 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures:32
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matrone
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer


Other:8
4 Aether Vial
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Serum Powder

This list runs really good and i just wanted to ask you how you think about my SB. I think theres no need for enchantment-removal anymore becuase COnfinement/Worship decks will be too slow in this fast combo-Meta.
So far...NQN

[troopatroop]

-1 Pyromancer
-2 Leyline

+1 Incinerater
+2 Mountains

22 Lands is generally accepted as correct, if not minimal.

[nitewolf9]

Running 2 leylines main deck with no way to cast them seems very questionable.
Even running all 4 maindeck seems bad since you have to pretty much mulligan into them when you need them, although I guess if you can figure out who is playing what it is probably ok. Have you considered maindeck pyroblasts instead?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I agree with Dan on this one. You either go 4x Leyline of the Void, or 0. Running 2 seems like a horrible idea, as it greatly slims the chance of drawing it in your opening hand, which is coincidentally the only time you want to see the card.

[Awesomator]

I liked 23 land PreFlash. Now I think 22 is optimal since the number of wastelands has dropped. I don't know why you would ever only run 2 leyline, I don't like Pyroblast either. 3-4 Therapy or 4 Leyline MD are the best choices IMO. Pyromancer isn't very good right now. I wouldn't run 4 Incinerator in this format either, three is enough. With the lack of wastelands there is absolutely no reason to not run a second color. Goblin King is worse than ever right now also. Enchantment removal helps vs Fish which generally runs 4 E Plague in the board as well as other randomness you will run into. I think enchantment and artifact removal is better than Pillar, but either is fine.

[ASSASSIN]

4 leyline MD ? The metagame is not 50% flash, not 50% of deck played in legacy is based about the graveyard. So put they in sideboard if you want but play a card why in begin hand is good half a chance and is totaly useless if you draw after.
But now we can stop speack about the metagame flash (except you develop it for a tournament before the April, 20).

23 lands MD ? I begin play this deck with 21 lands without fetch and haven't big problems of mana. When I see all the designer put 22 or 23 lands I test it but the % of mana it too important. We can win with one land (with vial or lackey) and wan not necessary 4 lands in turn 4. The only argument is the problem for coast the 3 SGC MD, but if you play 23 lands, the 8 necessary playset if you play 3 SGC you cut important one-slot. So play 22 land and 2 SGC is really better.

And yes if are enchantement and artifact removal in red all goblin play it. But splash only for have disenchant or krosian grip it is sad. All deck play plague play discard and regulary wasteland. So the solution against plague is really run the lifeless deck why play it, and if you can shearch a goblin king for fuck the first plague.
Against jitte and other equipement goblin can kill creature with for exemple pyrokinesis against FS, R/G taiga and 5/3 and anarchy against WW, Angel Stompy fish if he play serra avenger or sliver knight. And you are tinkerer.
For other enchantement we are aluren, survival, pernicious deed, rift, confinement, worship, ghostly prison, CoP/RoP:R, humility, moat and now may be opalescence. anarchy in a mono red sideboard give a solution against most of they cards. For other you can play needle or play pyrostatic pillar for aluren.

So for finish my actual decklist for start again atfer the degenerate combo :

13 moutain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

4 aether vial

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin tinkerer
1 sparkmith
1 goblin sharshooper
1 goblin king

SB : 4 calice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 anarchy

I am open for coments :)

[264505]

You might want to keep 3-4 spots open main for metagame stuff like chalice for combo and Pyrokinesis for aggro.

[Awesomator]

22 lands was optimal in a preflash meta, now that it's banned 23 is definitely the way to go. 23 Land gives you a big edge in the mirror and is just better all around. Since the 8 gobs in the deck chain into more goblins (not mentioning sgc) 23 land is never too much. One of the MANY reasons we're running foothills and mires are because we're splashing a 2nd color. Tin Street>> Tinkerer. I also like Krosan grip over Anarchys and REBs, athough your meta could be entirely different.

[ASSASSIN]

In mirror ? Stop with that. The important in mirror is not the number of land or the number of vial, juste the CA. The two opponants are 4 gempalm, 4 pyrokinesis, 4 fanatic and 1 sharp so table are always razed. You must draw, and not necessary draw fastly, just draw.

I play 15 matchs yesterday and think specially of my mana problem. I have one mana death and three mana full. But I keep five time a hand with one land. Why ? I open regluray hand whit 2 lackey, 2 vial or one lackey and one vial. I don't look the number of land in my beginning hand, juste the number of turn one.
After if you play fetchs and a second color (more sensible to wasteland) it is normal you play more land than me.

krosian grip are not the same utility than REB and anarchy. But the splash green is a tenable idea. Of course TSH > tinkerer, and in SB must be totally changed.

264505 -> I play chalice and pyrokinesis in X4 in sideboard. You can play 2 pyrokinesis MD but play leyline or calice in MD is stupid because this card never touch more than 50% of the metagame so in half chance it is useless.