[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Liek]

I don't get the opportunity to play the Fish match-up often and I'd like to know what answers to Grunt we have with UGR-Thresh. If it hits the board, I find the Bolt+Bolt or Bolt+Fire (or -insert other combination of two or more burn spells here-) plan a waste of resources and harder to accomplish (having the right combination of burn spells in hand). Engineered Explosives @ 2 seems decent but it's also a waste if they only have one Grunt on the board and no other creatures worth exploding, and it's a bit slow (4 mana). We can always Stifle its cumulative upkeep if it threatens threshold or Goyf's power, but that just delays the problem for a turn. Countering it before it hits the board seems like our most solid option (siding in Spell Snare helps towards that end). Any thoughts ?

We don't need a card to beat Jotun Grunt, besides the Spell Snares that should already be somewhere in the 75. It's not too difficult to play around. If it comes down early stop playing cantrips and let it attack twice. It can't sit back and block, it'll just die. If it comes down later, Quirion Dryad pushes it around, and we can hold a few cantrips and thresh up after it goes away. It's fairly simple to race. Tarmogoyf and Qurion Dryad both win a fight against it.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

I really urge everybody to play Stifles in this deck for the Goblin matchup, among other things. Goblins wins by tempoing us out, Stifle is the best way to keep up. It protects our fragile manabase, and can stop their development. Even if Stifling a Ringleader's trigger leaves them with a 2/2, it's still a pretty good answer to a Goblin Ringleader, and if we can't beat the 2/2 that remains, something else is wrong. Maybe one game out of twenty Stifle won't have a target, but many many more games than that a Counterspell will sit in hand and be too slow.

[Citrus-God]

We don't need a card to beat Jotun Grunt, besides the Spell Snares that should already be somewhere in the 75. It's not too difficult to play around. If it comes down early stop playing cantrips and let it attack twice. It can't sit back and block, it'll just die. If it comes down later, Quirion Dryad pushes it around, and we can hold a few cantrips and thresh up after it goes away. It's fairly simple to race.

I agree. You dont need anything to stop Grunt, because you will outrace him with Goyfs and/or Dryads anyway. Goose is the only thing that is taking a huge hit.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

It's right. I know Hanni does it a lot with WUB Fish, and buys an extra attack step with Grunt all the time.

I really urge everybody to play Stifles in this deck for the Goblin matchup, among other things. Goblins wins by tempoing us out, Stifle is the best way to keep up. It protects our fragile manabase, and can stop their development. Even if Stifling a Ringleader's trigger leaves them with a 2/2, it's still a pretty good answer to a Goblin Ringleader, and if we can't beat the 2/2 that remains, something else is wrong. Maybe one game out of twenty Stifle won't have a target, but many many more games than that a Counterspell will sit in hand and be too slow.

ehh... Stifles could be worth the slots in a metagame full of Combo and Goblins. Against Goblins, I would much rather have Pyroclasm. Everytime TES wins agianst me from my perspective is through Empty the Warrens, not Tendrils of Agony. Pyroclasm not only answers tokens, but kills Swarms. Against Goblins, it doesnt need to be timing specific and forces them to recover quickly when being pressure by 2-3 guys (which means you assumed dominant position).

I may be wrong with Stifle here, but I see Clasm being more amazing in that slot.

[Hanni]

I find Rolling Earthquake infinitely better than Pyroclasm because it can turn around and act as reach against board control or whatever... and it rewards you for getting land flooded, which is always nice since land floods usually suck (unless you're up against LD). It might hurt a little to take 2 damage off of Earthquake vs a deck like Goblins, but it's usually not a problem since you want to be playing the beatdown anyway (and if ur casting R Quake for 2, chances are you're winning anyway). The extra 1cc to cast may also be a little problematic, but it's still only 1 red source and it's alot more useful overall IMO. Against a deck like TES, it effectively does the same thing as Pyroclasm for the same price.

I like this cantrip setup:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

With this burn setup:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Rolling Earthquake

However, that's personal prefence. I already know no one on here, besides maybe Jazzy Kat, likes Sleight of Hand.

As I've said, my prefered creature base is:

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wee Dragonauts

But a creature base of the following seems extremely strong too:

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

I'm also torn between countermagic setups. Stifle improves the combo matchup, even though the clock should be blazingly fast, but I never seem to find myself needed additional strength vs Goblins with the red splash with 2 MD R Quakes (and 2 SB), whereas Stifle sucks vs the white splash of Thresh and Counterspell is extremely strong vs them.

I prefer Sleight of Hand in the versions with Dryad or Dragonauts because it helps chain cantrips. I tried Mental Note so many times and I really hate it. All it does is establish Threshold faster. I mean, yea it's nice to cast Mental Note after a Brainstorm if you don't have a fetch... but all it is, is a blind cantrip. The lack of card quality, especially in decks only running 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Visions/Note w/o Magma Jet, seriously lacks in card quality. Both Portent and Sleight of Hand are far better options for card quality, where Sleight of Hand gives the card immediately in order to chain spells for the Grow creatures. Personal preference I suppose. It also gives the deck additional sorceries, since the deck seems to lack sorceries far more compared to instants (all the burn besides R Quake is instant, the countermagic is instant, and you're only sorcery speed cantrip in the Mental Note version is Serum Visions).

Again, that's all personal preference.

On a sidenote, Jotun Grunt is definitely a problem vs Thresh even with Tarmogoyf and even Dryad too, at least coming from Fish. It doesn't matter if it's white splash or red splash (especially since StP gets named with Mage against the white splash). Nearly every game where I resolve a Grunt, I've won the match. The best answer, aside from StP I suppose, that my opponent's have been able to fight through Grunt, they either had triple Goyf with both graveyards being full of tons of stuff, or they popped EE for 2 and then dropped a Goyf.

[BoardinCharlie]

As Hanni and a few other people said, and which I agree, Grunt is a problem. Specially since they can pick which cards get put back into a players deck. Goyf is what could stop it, but when they are choosing what to reshuffle I see there being a problem. There will be few creatures in our own yard as is so targeting enough to shrink goyf down to 3/4 wont be too much of a problem. We will mostly have instant, sorcery, land...but creature, enchantment, and artifacts will be in very low numbers.

In my opinion grunt is an issue since it stops our plan in multiple ways. Anyone thought about answers posted previously? *Pro white/FTK*

[aTn]

I agree that Grunt is a problem if you don't run Mental Note (I'm testing Sleigh of Hand in the M.Note slots). Until now, I'd say Spell Snare and EE@2 are my best answers.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I agree with Liek that Stifle is very important in the Goblins match-up, I seriously wouldn't want Couterspell in its place.

@BoardinCharlie: I don't like the 3 and 4 cc sideboard suggestions you made (mana cost is too high for my taste - K. Grip costs 3 but it's Split Second...). Ground Seal doesn't seem to work because Grunt's upkeep cost doesn't target cards in the grave. As for Blood Knight, maybe, but I can't get used to the idea of having him in my SB (and paying RR); he seems like a card you'd side-in in only a few match-ups.

[BoardinCharlie]

I thought how Cumulative upkeep worked is:

1) First an age counter is put on
2)then you decide whether or not to pay the upkeep

So the opponent would put on the age counter then choose whether or not to pay the upkeep. So you could stifle one turns trigger of the activation so the next turn it may be to much for them to be able to reshuffle?

This was the debate with that vexing sphinx card...you could put the age counter on, then not pay the upkeep and still draw a card or whatever.

Am I wrong?

[aTn]

Cumulative upkeep-Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library.

The definition of cumulative upkeep:

At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.

The effect triggers at the beginning of the upkeep of Grunt's controller. When it's on the stack, you can Stifle it. If the effect resolves (for example, if you choose not to Stifle it or if you cast Stifle and it gets countered), then the owner of Grunt will put a counter and have to pay the upkeep cost; if the effect doesn't resolve, he doesn't put a counter and doesn't have to pay the upkeep cost.

[Anarky87]

So what does the Hatfield version of this deck looks like now? I know everyone is caught up with the Dryad, but I was extensively testing the UGR Top/Counterbalance version before Flash and I was curious as to whether there were any updates on the deck. Like Spell Snare instead of Counterspell, MD Stifle or no, that sorta thing.

[Citrus-God]

So what does the Hatfield version of this deck looks like now? I know everyone is caught up with the Dryad, but I was extensively testing the UGR Top/Counterbalance version before Flash and I was curious as to whether there were any updates on the deck. Like Spell Snare instead of Counterspell, MD Stifle or no, that sorta thing.

Counterspell is actually a good card in Hatfield Thresh. I'm sure you understand that that this deck loves to beat Goblins. Counterspell is one the the reasons why you have such an edge against Goblins. Stifles are good, but everyone said that Stifle isnt that strong of an answer to Goblins, and is only good against Combo. Of course, now, in this day and age, Pyroclasm is ironically strong against Combo as well as Counterbalance.

The changes to the Hatfield deck should probably be swapping Bears for Goyfs. I PMed Zur awhile back about changes made to the deck, and he said that running Bears in the Dragon slot as a meta choice isnt bad since it will give you a better game against Goblins.

Verbal Warning for referring to Tarmogoyf as McQueen. I'm serious, stop using pet names. It's confusing and unnecessary. ~ Nightmare

[troopatroop]

Counterspell is actually a good card in Hatfield Thresh. I'm sure you understand that that this deck loves to beat Goblins. Counterspell is one the the reasons why you have such an edge against Goblins. Stifles are good, but everyone said that Stifle isnt that strong of an answer to Goblins, and is only good against Combo. Of course, now, in this day and age, Pyroclasm is ironically strong against Combo as well as Counterbalance.

The changes to the Hatfield deck should probably be swapping Bears for McQueens (Goyfs). I PMed Zur awhile back about changes made to the deck, and he said that running Bears in the Dragon slot as a meta choice isnt bad since it will give you a better game against Goblins.

I completely disagree. Counterspells are really bad against goblins. Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game.

[B4L4]

Hum, vs gobbo, Counterspell can be useful:
If Gob hasn't resolved an Aether Vial
If their Wastes don't hurt your UU in manabase
If you answer Lackey, via FoW/Daze or burn, or if you have enough mana to play a creature to block Lackey + to keep UU open to counter one of their spells

So, I'd rather have a Stifle in this MU:
Protect from Wasteland, broken Matron/Ringleader/Siege Gang/Incinerator trigger, for one less mana than CS.

And if you say that Stifle leaves them with a 1/1 or 2/2, if you can't blast it/ have a bigger creature at this moment of the game, then you will probably lose, even if this Stifle would have been CS.

Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game

??

[noobslayer]

He's referring to the ringleader activation.

As far as Quirion Dryad goes, my testing shows he's hit and miss, Wearbear may be better, but I'm not so sure yet.

[Happy Gilmore]

I completely disagree. Counterspells are really bad against goblins. Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game.

You want to run that by me again? How the heck does stifle counter fact or fiction? And what does tempo you in the game mean? If anything stifling a Ringleader instead of countering it is a lose of tempo. The fact that they don't get to use the ability is irrelevant, they would still gain card advantage over you. Stifle was in my sb for some time before I switched to Counterbalance and I have never used it to counter a Wasteland, the card is simply too weak to be MD.

I can tell you from experience in the goblins matchup that Counterspell is essential. Pithing Needle is better at stopping the other threats such as crypts/Vial/Waste/Port than Stifle. It is important to build the maindeck to face many different matchups and Counterspell in never a dead card (Ichorid is an exception).

[Volt]

You want to run that by me again? How the heck does stifle counter fact or fiction?

Fact or Fiction = Goblin Ringleader.

I don't think Counterspell is particularly good against Goblins. They're always one of the first things I side out.

[Happy Gilmore]

Fact or Fiction = Goblin Ringleader.

I don't think Counterspell is particularly good against Goblins. They're always one of the first things I side out.

If your coming from the perspective of CounterSliver, then yes. But Thresh is a completely different beast altogether. And just because they both cost 4 does not mean that they are comparable. Lets say for a second that you could stifle FoF, then it would technically counter the spell completely. But if the same was done to Ringleader that still leaves a 2/2 hasty body. You are going to create card disadvantage by using stifle on Ringleader, the same goes for SGC.

I still have not heard a valid reason for running Stifle over Counterspell in the MD. You can argue that it might be better in certain matchups, but then I wonder how much of they field you assume will be the matchup in question. Even if Goblins represents 20% of the field there is a chance of not facing it in a 5-7 round tournament. I also don't agree with the assessment that Stifle is better than Counterspell against goblins anyway. What does it actually do for you? This question still has not been answered. My experience with Grow/Thresh has shown stifle to be a waste of SB slots because better options can be found for the matchups it is needed in.

What the hell do you do against opponents playing Chalice? You lose, that’s what, because all but 13 spells in your deck are 1cc (assuming you’re running mental Note too). You only have 4 hard counters to answer the Chalice and if it sticks....you have exactly 6 creatures with which to win the game. When your opponent is playing loam and they cast DD, you have to have the FoW or you lose.

Stifle makes your good matchups better, and your bad matchups even worse. Thanks but no thanks.

[B4L4]

cm'on let's play your predict, CS, counterbalance build against gobbo, and die to it, that's symply too slow

I've test a good amount of game vs gob with a build that run 2stifle and 2CS, in i rarely cast CS against gobbo, but stifle is MVP (and i board CS , and keep stifle g2...)
It allow silly trick like stifling a gemmpalm while goblin player is trying to trade 2-3 goblin for your tarmogoyf, protect your red source from waste, ect

If u want to answer chalice, play 3 ancient grudge sb, anway u need them against stack, gob, FS, WW, pox style deck
It will answer vial and chalice post board vs gob

Again, if u die to an unaswered 2/2, then u die to all sort of aggro...


Actually, vs combo decks of the format, stifle > counterspell (EtW, ToA), and, its maybe also true vs solidarity, cause stifling a fetch is timewalk here, where counterspell can be very loosy if they buy engouh time to go to turn 6-7, cause they gonna dominate the stacks

U can consider that stifle over CS make the bad matchup that control is even worst(@landstill ), but i think is play style difference here, against countrol, both CS and stifle can make me happy, cause i don't want to enter the late game, and both can be considered as cheap aswers against control
For example on a deed, CS make control waste 3 mana, stifle make them spend 3 + 1-2 to kill your creature, here stifle > CS
stifle buy u 1 attack step vs nantuko monastery (u are unlucky if they can activate it twice (need GGWW)

but okay, CS > stifle on wrath, fact...

[aTn]

What the hell do you do against opponents playing Chalice? You lose, that’s what, because all but 13 spells in your deck are 1cc.

Pre-board I might agree, post-board you have Spell Snare (CotV@1), Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grip. People in my meta don't play Faerie Stompy that much and the CotV I see are sided-in (usually by Goblins players). If people start playing a lot of CotV maindeck, I'll revert to Counterspell (or Spell Snare) in the Stifle slots. Since I see Goblins and ETW.dec a lot in my meta (Cret Belcher and sometimes TES), I'll keep the Stifle MD for now.

P.S.: I play the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (see Liek's list) so I don't like not being able to cast a creature just to keep UU available during my opponents turn.

[Anarky87]

cm'on let's play your predict, CS, counterbalance build against gobbo, and die to it, that's symply too slow

But why are you MD'ing Counterbalance? I don't even play it MD, it's only from the SB, and if you're bring that it against Goblins...just....why? Hello, Pyroclasm?? I play Predict and Counterspell in my build and it works just fine against Goblins, so I don't know where that's coming from.

I agree that Stifle is a neat card and can be pretty powerful in a lot of cases. But I've since moved away from it, as I haven't really found the need for it in Thresh, as Top/Counterbalance just shut out combo and is amazing in the mirror as well, something that Stifle can't say.

[B4L4]

But why are you MD'ing Counterbalance?

I am not playing MD couterbalance, i just name counterbalance with all the cards i consider too slow against goblin..

P.S.: I play the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (see Liek's list) so I don't like not being able to cast a creature just to keep UU available during my opponents turn.

+1

[Happy Gilmore]

You only need one creature to win, just one. Saying you dislike Counterspell because it doesn't allow you to drop a creature that turn is flawed logic. You can have all 4 tarmogyfs out against goblins and still lose. If you can’t stop certain threats on the stack you’re screwed. Goblins is going to block only what they need to live then they are going to crash in for huge amounts of damage. Then, once they have you on defense they can take their time and wear you down. If you simply answer the SGC or Ringleader with a Counterspell you can save a lot of hassle. Stifle is cute but will never answer the threats in Goblins. Without Counterspell or Predict Goblins will bury you in card advantage.