[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Elfrago]

Today I used Solidarity in a small tournament. The deck worked nicely and brought me to the top8. Still, a had a little disappointment with one card: Cunning Wish.

Seriusly, that card is too slow! Having to pay 3 and the cost of the card you need is usually too much.

The card is still nice when comboing out, but I find it slow in fighting aganist meddling mage and his buddies and I usually get rid of it using Branistorm + fetchland in the first turns...

We only need it in 3 copies to fight some certain tough matchups and, despite my metagame filled with hard matchups for the deck, I still find the third copy too slow.

I thought that maybe we should cut 1 of them and move it to the SB for those bad matchups.
I'll test this change at a next tournment and I'll let you know the results.
In the meanwhile I'd like to ear your thoughts about it.

[noobslayer]

Cunning Wish can be one of the less useful pieces at times. We run three so if we need it, we get it, but otherwise we don't run into it often. I don't know what you could replace its versatility and raw win power with. It may be bad in situation, even too slow, but it wins you games by handing you an answer when you need it most.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

The card is still nice when comboing out, but I find it slow in fighting aganist meddling mage and his buddies and I usually get rid of it using Branistorm + fetchland in the first turns...

How is it too slow to combat Meddling Mage and his buddies when Meddling Mage costs 2 and Cunning Wish costs just one more mana? I really doubt they are going to have lethal damage on the table after they cast a turn 2 Meddling Mage.


I do see your point somewhat however. I HATE having double Cunning Wish in my opening hand. I would hate to cut the card though, because when it shines, it really shines.

[ReAnimated]

@ElFrago
I'm not a big Solidarity expert, but why would you move the wish you cut to the board?

[Elfrago]

How is it too slow to combat Meddling Mage and his buddies when Meddling Mage costs 2 and Cunning Wish costs just one more mana? I really doubt they are going to have lethal damage on the table after they cast a turn 2 Meddling Mage.

But we usually have to cast Cunning wish (hopefully with remand or FOW backup), cast the card we get (wich is usually Wipe Away) and then combo-out when they replay the Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn... this is quite mana-expensive and slow.

@ElFrago
I'm not a big Solidarity expert, but why would you move the wish you cut to the board?

Usually we use it for two reasons: get meditate or turnabout from the SB while comboing out (which is a little mana-hungry but is fine) or to get an answer for Meddling Mage, Chalice of The Void, Rule of Law and the like... decks with those cards usually packs FOW and other counters.

When one of these cards hits the ground we want to have Cunning Wish in 3 copies becouse the first one could get countered! But, except for Meddling Mages, those cards are not played in the maindeck.

By moving the Wish to the board we still have three of them to bounce their hate after sideboarding AND we get rid of a slow cards in those matchups were we really dont need it that much.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

But we usually have to cast Cunning wish (hopefully with remand or FOW backup), cast the card we get (wich is usually Wipe Away) and then combo-out when they replay the Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn... this is quite mana-expensive and slow.

If there was a Cunning Wish out there that cost 1U then trust me, I would be running it too, but there isn't, so we have to make the best of what is available to us. Most players I know don't even run Wipe Away in the board, so it won't be uncommon for the Thresh player to allow Cunning Wish to resolve thinking that they can just counter the spell that you get with Wish.

Also, obv. we have to combo out when they go to re-play Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn. We wouldn't bounce the Mage if we didn't think we could go off the next turn, lol. That would be just plain stupid unless the Meddling Mage was lethal next turn. I don't find Cunning Wish annoying at all, unless it's in multiples like I said before. That's why we run 3.

[Elfrago]

I agree with you Shady.
Still I'll test 2 Wishes + 1 in the SB... too bad I cant test it for a cuple weeks :(

[Cait_Sith]

I agree with you Shady.
Still I'll test 2 Wishes + 1 in the SB... too bad I cant test it for a cuple weeks :(

Problem is then you you are much less likely to see it. If you are forced to cast Stroke of Genius on yourself you NEED to find a Wish in order to make sure your opponent is extra crispy dead.

[Bahamuth]

I too played Solidarity at a local tournament. There were 32 people attending. I went 3-1-1, and got into the top 8, my first ever.

In the top 8 I had to play against the deck I hoped for, 43 lands. And I lost... 0-2....

In the first game I drew a hand with 3 Tide, 1 Reset, 2 Brainstorm and 1 Island.
Obviously I didn't draw any land with the 2 Brainstorm, and actually found a thirth. At the turn my opponent could kill me, I had 3 land and attempted to go off, but screwed up. Out of draw spells, I Brain Froze (that's English right?) myself and forgot that I had to float 2 extra mana to flashback an Flash of Insight.

The second game my opponend played a turn 2 Chalice on 1, and a turn 3/4 (not sure) Chalice on 3. I didn't have an answer to any of them, so I lost.

Spell Snare worked out really good for me, and I will definately keep playing them.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm looking to pick this deck up and I have some questions;

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?
What should a proper sideboard be?
What turn should I be aiming for?
What are the good and bad match-ups?
Six or eight fetchlands?
What is the best cantrip layout?
Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

I'm sure these are all valid questions, it's a complicated deck.

[Lukas Preuss]

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?

The most solide build is the mono colored one, but the splashes have advantages, as well. Against an aggro-control metagame, red gives Sudden Shock to remove Meddling Mage, green and white give Drop of Honey, Porphyry Nodes, Quirion Dryad and/or Orim's Chant. It depends largely on the metagame, but I would start with the mono colored build since it is the one that is most tested.


What should a proper sideboard be?

This depends on the splash, but a typical mono colored SB would look something like:

4 Hydroblast
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Twincast
1 Chain of Vapors
1 Echoing Truth
4 Metagame slots (Disrupt, Spell Snare, etc.)


What turn should I be aiming for?

This deck goldfishes on turn 4 normally, but you should try the following as well, when practicing with the deck:
Turn 3 goldfish
Turn 4 with one opponent Counterspell (normally on High Tide)
Turn 5 with one opponent Counterspell
Turn 5 with two opponent Counterspells
Turn 6 with two opponent Counterspells
Turn 6 with Meddling Mage on the board (combo without High Tide).
etc.

These vary in difficulty, but they should give you a good understanding on how the deck works.


What are the good and bad match-ups?

Good:
- Anything slower than turn 4 without relevant disruption (Survival, Wombat, Zoo, etc.)
- Slow Control with Disruption (MUC, Landstill)
- Other Combo (Spring Tide, etc.)

Mediocre:
- Very fast combo (TES, Belcher... although I haven't tested the matchup since both became popular)
- Goblins (sometimes too fast for you, depends also on the amount of hate they play)
- UBW Fish (slow, but has tons of hate MD like Mage, etc.)

Bad:
- Threshold (Fast, backed up by lots of relevant disruption like Daze, FoW and Mage)
- Deadguy Ale (Hand and land destruction)
- Red Death (see above)


Six or eight fetchlands?

Six is the proven number and is generally agreed upon. It's no big difference actually if Stifle isn't played in your metagame.


What is the best cantrip layout?

It's either 2 Peek / 2 Opt or 4 Opt... depends on what you like best.


Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

Brainfreezing yourself to hit Flash of Insight comes to mind, but this isn't a standard play, it's basically only used when you're stuck with no draw spell but one Brain Freeze. Flash of Insight is one of the best cards, by the way since it lets you stack your library.

[noobslayer]

I'm looking to pick this deck up and I have some questions;

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?
What should a proper sideboard be?
What turn should I be aiming for?
What are the good and bad match-ups?
Six or eight fetchlands?
What is the best cantrip layout?
Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

I'm sure these are all valid questions, it's a complicated deck.

1. No splash seems best right now. I'm not even sure the other splashes have much to really offer at this time, and even add the issue of mana stability against decks packing wasteland.

2. This is mine:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Brainfreeze
3 Twincast
3 Stifle

3. Any turn 4-6 is a standard game. In the control match-up, go whenever your holding the nuts. In fact, you can mini combo to try and pull any counter magic and such out of their hand so you can go off completely free for the larger combo. Most of the time this isn't necessary, as even if they are packing counter magic, you tend to roll them as long as they have no real clock available.

4. Good match-ups include virtually all control decks, you go about even with goblins (this one is mostly Dependant if you have force for their lackey), most slow discard decks I feel don't pose much of a threat, and a wide array of random decks.

Bad match-ups include the threshold archtype decks, and deadguy has been known to be an issue. Faster combo has also become more of a relevant issue, hence why I pack 3 stifle in my board, and if it become more of an issue, I'll cut the 4th brainfreeze for the 4th stifle.

5. Six. Gearhart had even mentioned to me about potentially going down to five or four.

6. The deck is pretty much standard, with the main contention being 4 opt or 2 opt/2 peek.

7. The deck is one big synergistic engine. The best thing I can suggest, is whenever you play, stop, and think about all the possible interactions. Also, I've taken to writing out my deck order in short hand when I use Flash, so I can appropriately mill myself if need be with another brainfreeze (or use the remaining copies on the stack).

[Lukas Preuss]

Faster combo has also become more of a relevant issue, hence why I pack 3 stifle in my board, and if it become more of an issue, I'll cut the 4th brainfreeze for the 4th stifle.

I was wondering about this lately since I picked the deck up again. Stifle would be a great card against combo, but do you bring it in against Goblins as well (you're not running the blue blasts, so did this weaken your Goblin matchup?)? Does it work to slow the Goblin player down?

[Tacosnape]

I don't entirely agree with Deadguy Ale and Red Death being all that bad for Solidarity. Either can be nasty if Hypnotic Specter gets going, but as Hypnotic Specter's losing popularity in both decks due to Solidarity's decline and Fast Combo's rise, things aren't altogether as hellish as they used to be.

Brainstorm can fend off Duress and Therapy to a degree, and a resolved Meditate will often give you the gas you need to win.

I'm not saying either one's a great match, but I'd consider putting them in mediocre or possibly their own category. They're a fair bit worse for you than say, Goblins, but significantly better than UGW Threshold.

Also, Red Death's a fair bit worse than Deadguy Ale for the most part, though this can depend on Deadguy's board.

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

[C.P.]

I don't entirely agree with Deadguy Ale and Red Death being all that bad for Solidarity. Either can be nasty if Hypnotic Specter gets going, but as Hypnotic Specter's losing popularity in both decks due to Solidarity's decline and Fast Combo's rise, things aren't altogether as hellish as they used to be.

Brainstorm can fend off Duress and Therapy to a degree, and a resolved Meditate will often give you the gas you need to win.

I'm not saying either one's a great match, but I'd consider putting them in mediocre or possibly their own category. They're a fair bit worse for you than say, Goblins, but significantly better than UGW Threshold.

Also, Red Death's a fair bit worse than Deadguy Ale for the most part, though this can depend on Deadguy's board.

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

My version of BW runs Negator instead of Specter, and it has been pretty good for me. Brainstorm does dodge pinpoint discard, but hymn attacking card quantity and Sinkhole vindicate for keeping you off the mana that you need is pretty solid against the deck. I have not lost this match yet. Unless you use neat tricks like Divert or Disrupt, I cannot see how Solidarity can beat B/x disruption deck in the hand of competent player.

[Lukas Preuss]

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

The problem with those two cards is against UGW Thresh and UBW Fish, were you need to play against counterspells as well as Mage. Do you have enough cards to take out? Or do you just side one of the two in (which would make one of the cards obsolete, I guess, since eventhough Chant is nice against combo it would limit it to the combo matchup only where it is just as good as Stifle).

Also, StP doesn't buy you a lot of time, since it only removes mage but doesn't slow them down. Have you tested Porphyry Nodes? They should slow UGW Thresh down so that you have a far better chance to combo off (giving you a much greater stack and mana advantage so that you don't need Chant to protect yourself). I think in addition to Orim's Chant, Porphyry Nodes should be tried, as well.

I did some testing with it, but I don't think I got the timing right all the time, because sometimes dropping one was just too late. :(

But what do you think?



Also, one thing I found really disheartening was that a lot of Threshold and Fish decks here in Germany start to maindeck the Counterbalance engine lately. I haven't really found a way to deal with this yet, and it is really annoying and has cost me numerous games in testing. Any ideas how to deal with it? Wipe Away or Repeal come to mind, but you could only use those to bounce it before comboing, making your search spells before that really vulnerable. I thought about Krosan Grip in the sideboard (the green splash) in addition to Drop of Honey.

[Tacosnape]

The obvious solution to Counterbalance engine maindeck that comes to mind is "Run Goblins instead and make them suffer." However, most Counterbalance decks I've played against can't always get CMC 3 spells to land on top, making Cunning Wish / Wipe Away a decent idea, along with any 3CC removal spell like Krosan Grip or Dismantling Blow. Determined loses ground as you won't get it to stick against Counterbalance.

The thing I don't like about Porphyry Nodes is that it's no help Game 1. Swords can be snagged with Cunning Wish in tons of matchups to randomly save your ass. This includes being able to grab it as an answer to Meddling Mage (Although on occasion Wipe Away's the better grab here, depending on circumstances.)

Spell Snare seems nicer and nicer against Fish if they're running Counterbalance and Mage both, also.

[jazzykat]

Just an organizational thought if someone where inclined. This thread is over 1000 posts long. If someone who knew how to play this deck was inclined, would the mods let them start a new thread, that had pertinent summary information so we can have a more manageable thread? In that way maybe the same question won't be asked 20 times (or at least you would be a lot more justified for shooting someone that did not search the new thread).

Thanks,
JK

[Weekend Daddy]

Has anyone tried using Misdirection in Solidarity. Would you be able to target an opponent's FoW and direct it to Misdirection?

[Blaukreuz]

Would you be able to target an opponent's FoW and direct it to Misdirection?

yes, the new target for the misdirected spell is chosen on resolution (of the misdirection) when misdirection is still on the stack. So you can choose misdirection.

However, i dont think misdirection is needed in Solidarity. You already got enough stackcontrol and in lots of matchups the misdirection is shit.
Some people play 1x misdirection in the wishboard i think.