Yes. Deed and Monestary are worth it for Green.Originally Posted by Van Phanel;@ all:
Are Deed and Monastery really [B
Pernicious Deed is the single absolute best board sweeper in magic. Not only will it Wrath their board, it'll do it at instant speed where Wrath can't, and it'll take out artifacts and enchantments with it. Cracking a deed will more often than not leave you with absolutely nothing but Land on the board, which is 4C Landstill's dream come true. The fact that Deed functions as your Disenchant-style effect lets you dedicate what would be those Disenchants to Counters or more Spot removal.
Monestary is worth it because very little can swing through it. Midgame, it will force aggro decks to extend multiple threats on the board in order to mount an assault to get safely through it. This, of course, is exactly what you want, and allows you to crush it with Deed.
Muradin's build isn't bad by any means, though. It's one of the best builds I've seen in awhile.
Thanks for the reply.
a.) I faced vial a few times against the fish build. In this match up I made sure to save counter force or hope to draw mass removal in time. You are right though.
b.) I didnt play monastery so I could support a flier and have the extra blue mana, also if you dont hit thresh monastery is dead.
c) Against zoo the buy back saved my life. Between the 4 Stand still 2 Fof and 1 Ancetral vision, the buy back was never difficult. I also would toss lands away and loam them back. I really like forbid, its just really slow though.
Last edited by Nightmare; 07-10-2007 at 07:25 AM.
I still see many reasons to run UW over UWg or UWb, UBg, or even UWbg. Like a slightly more stable and forgiving mana base. Let's not forget that Faerie Conclave also produces Blue, so you'll have UU by Turn 2.
Landstill has also done very well in the past. I know Geoff Smelski and others played a Crucible-less build, which intrigued me. He rejected MD Crucibles, which freed up lots of room.
I playtested the list a while back against Goblins, and I was suprised. I think we should look into those colors again.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Geoff is actually playing UWbg now. He runs Cunning Wish and a host of Pacts in the board, along with Extirpates and Harmonic Convergence.
Oh, and my article on UWg Landstill is up on SCG. Link here.
I've been toying around with 4c Landstill for a while, and have been less than satisfied with my 2nd pinpoint removal spell (that would be diabolic edict; StP is obviously awesome). The 2cc is a tad prohibitive if I want to be activated manlands as well, and the fact that it can miss the real threat is rather annoying.
Of all the creatures that edict hits over targetted removal (mongoose, troll ascetic, akroma [if the removal is black], simic sky swallower, etc.) only mongoose is played extensively. And mongoose dies to blocking manlands and a deed popped for >0. So, I personally (at least for my metagame) would like to rework that slot. I'm currently trying out ghastly demise, and I will see if I fill my graveyard fast enough to handle creatures like tarmogoyf. If not, smother might go in (the cost again is 2cc, but at least it targets).
I've also been unhappy with stifle, at least maindeck. My meta doesn't have a wasteland in sight so I don't need stifle for land protection. Storm combo is also rather low at the moment. However, I have no idea what to put in its place. Suggestions are very welcome at this point, though I want to keep it blue so I have enough spells to pitch to Fow.
I have loved edict for the longest time. In fact, i would take edict over StP against many decks. However, if you feel unhappy with it, you have other options. Ghastly demise has worked nicely in my 3-color build. My graveyard always grows with the size of threats. The only problem is a turn 1 lackey, and you got nothing in grave. Innocent blood works as well, if you found edict's curve too high. Innocent blood takes a little more skill to play with, but ussually has the same effect. Terror is another thing that comes to mind. However, the non-black part comes into effect alot more than you would imagine. Vendetta is another option, although i would almost always take ghastly over this. You could always run humility, moat. Something i always wanted to try out was Porphyry Nodes / drop of honey.
If you dislike stifle, i guess you could run more draw or more counters. Maybe a pulse the fields, or more creature hate (like above). More EE, and possibly a disk are other option as well. I am sure i am overlooking something, but that is all i can really think of...
Take a cue from Honz and try out Innocent Blood as your other removal spell instead of Diabolic Edict. Swords and Deed will satisfy the instant-speed removal, and Blood's 1 mana cheaper. I ran Innocent Blood for quite a long time and in certain metagames he's still the right call. Ghastly Demise blows in the first few turns when you need it to shine the most. Also, it's bad enough when a Threshold-eater (Like Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt) delays your kill capacity. The last thing you need it doing is hurting your removal also.
Targeting is overrated. In almost every matchup, there's only going to be one creature to Edict, or you aren't going to care which one goes to the Edict.
If Stifle has virtually no use in your metagame, try Spell Snare in its place. Snare >> Legacy.
Hey everyone,
the Stifles didn't seem to be worth playing in my metagame as well, so I dropped them for 2 Enlightened Tutor 1 Humility and 1 Vedalken Shackles.
I took the deck to one of the biggest legacy tournaments in Germany, and it preformed really well. I went 5-1-1 and made it to the fourth place (of 69 guys).
The tutors were insane, the got me Humility when I had the double white, or they got me the Deeds when I needed them. They can search crucible/standstill/shackles and all the Sideboard cards you need (I played CoP:Red,Plagues,Engeneered Explosives).
The only real problem is that you have less blue cards, but the metagame was less combo and more aggro/aggro control.
Andu
congrats on the results.
How did the MD shackles do for you?, i was never happy with them SB or MD...
I was playing against some random deck the other day (i wasn't playing landstill though), when he played a Drop of Honey. I couldn't help but think that this (or its brother, prophy nodes) deserves a place in landstill. For starters, it is 1cc and the right color(s). It would absolutely destroy goblins, or any aggro (sligh, stompy, elves, RG beats...etc). If playing against aggro-control, you could drop it a bit later in the game, once your creature hate is used up. Maybe a SB slot against aggro.
Just a thought, maybe it is a win-more. Wondering if anyone had tried it out...
As a first turn drop the aggro or gobbo Player just play one Turn no Creature and your Drop of Honey is gone. It buys you one Round.
And in the Mid/Lategame the Drop is very slow, against many decks he will sacrifice the week Creatures and rip of you ass ;>.
If you were to adjust your statagy, to play moats, ghostly prison and humility; you could run nodes much more effectively. If humility is in play, you get your pick of what to kill off.
Also, a late-game drop of honey is not weak; the abyss sees alot of play in landstill (duck hunt), and that is definately a late-game drop. The abyss has been really good for me, so i thought maybe drop of honey would be nice as well.
Once again, just a thought. I realize it has some problems, but W for destroy a creature each turn is pretty damn nice. Turn 2-3 against gobbos and they are gonna have some problems.
In defense of the card, what actually happens against Goblins (or other aggro) is far better than this. If, for example, your opponent has played a turn one Lackey and you answer it with Drop/Nodes, your opponent is presented with a choice: Sacrifice the Lackey -and- lose a chance to play a Piledriver or another small threat, or commit to killing you with the initial rush of the Lackey connecting (Which from testing, they'll absolutely never do with a Drop/Nodes out combined with your other removal unless the initial hit drops a Siege-Gang Commander, and even then it can be recovered from more often than not.)
Against other Aggro, you get a similar setup, only this time they absolutely have to choose to sacrifice and skip the turn. So essentially you're getting rid of a creature for 1 mana at the expense of taking one hit from it while strongly compelling your opponent to not play a creature for a turn.
That said, I don't think Drop or Nodes entirely belong in this deck unless you're running Pulse of the Fields. Without Pulse of the Fields, you absolutely cannot afford to take the hits. 4C Landstill and many 3C builds have absolutely no lifegain short of STP'ing their own Manlands.
However, if you want to try it out in 4C, I recommend you give it Engineered Plague's slots. In a recent match against a skilled player on MWS, I was quite sleepy and somehow forgot to board in the Engineered Plagues. Much to my surprise, I was still able to pull off a pretty clean game 2 victory off the Blasts and Mages and launching into Deed/Standstill combinations. Although this might be a stretch basing this on one game of testing, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to contemplate replacing Engineered Plague with Drop of Honey or Porphyry Nodes, each of which would still contribute somewhat against Goblins.
Also, in a side-note that isn't Landstill related, I've been working on a super secret deck that runs the full eight, 4 Drops and 4 Nodes, to solid success thus far.
If you've got a Humility or a Moat in play, why exactly do you need the Porphyry Nodes?
Concerning SB's for the 4c Landstill, what is everyone running in their SB's? I'm kind of in a pickle because I can't really decide on what to have in there for Gencon. So far I have:
4 Engineered Plague (The only concrete set in there)
The rest I've been deciding on are among:
4 Mage
4 Leyline
4 Duress
4 BEB
3 Extirpate
Plague seems pretty obvious because I know there will be Goblins, but I've been considering the rest of the board to be:
4 Plague
4 Mage
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
But this board doesn't address things like Burn/Goblins/Red Stuff (BEB) or Ichorid (Leyline). I've also tried a board of:
4 Plague
4 BEB
4 Mage
3 Extirpate
Getting rid of Duress completely, but I like having Duress to board in against combo, aggro-control, and other control decks. Does BEB deserve spots in the SB at all? I know they help in the Gobs match too. As you can see, this is my conundrum.
BEB also helps in combo matchups like Epic Storm and Belcher, which is where you'd mostly need Duress. This to me makes it the more attractive option.
I strongly agree that the deck can ONLY support 2 colors. I have splashed black and green ONLY for versatility with cunning wish targets and the very needed 3rd to 4th colors for engineered explosives. The main deck is entirely blue/white, all of my side board cards that get boarded into the deck are also only blue/white.
Honestly the format is closer than ever at getting back to the way it was when Landstill was the only really viable deck.
With this in mind you must play expecting to face other Landstill decks. I have tested all of the various builds that have sprung up in the last 2 years and the only one that is really viable against everything is blue/white.
Any deck can be built to beat 2-4 different tier one decks. The amazing power of Landstill is its ability to beat all the decks you face in the first half of the tournament and still be set up to hose the tier one decks in top 8.
As a side note I would like to discourage the playing of mana leak. Landstill almost by definition is meant to go to the late game. Counterspells are the backbone of the deck and need to be reliable at all times. As far as having the 2-blue mana to cast it, Landstill can support 7 colorless sources of mana, that's it. [trust me i have tested it alot]. You more or less have the choice of playing 3 Monastery or 3 Wasteland, either way if you are playing more than that you are going to lose whether you are playing Mana Leak or not.
Since this is my first post this is Geoff Smelski.
Hi all, my name is Marius Hausmann, i did finish the last Bazaar-Liga in Germany again with Top8ing ( 5. from 76 players )...
Here the Build: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9582
Following i want to explain some card-choices and before this clearly say, that i know the strength of pernicious deeds in 4colour builds but nevertheless dislike them, cause 1.) your mana-base gets quite week ( ecspecially if not running cruicibles ) and b.) deeds can be often handled by a disenchant, a needle or a stifle ( which is omnipresent in TES-times )...
Further it is not really faster then a WoG, cause you can blow it up earliest in round 4 ( as WoG too... ). The advantage of having the possibility to kill vials and Decks like Affinity is not worth adding 2 Colours in my mind... ( and deeds are worthless against theese bad Rock-Decks, featuring Hierarchs)...
To my Deck:
Most choices should be clear, i added Black for having postboard good chances against LftL-Decks, for the plagues and of course for the possibility to blow up EE for 3. For theese i have cutted the mostly too late coming vengeances and the disk ( EE > TES / Vial ). Further EE are the best card ever against Counterbalance, since you can simply pay UUUW, having a cc of 4...
2 Fact or Fictions are nice, while i definitely miss the 3. Stifle... 1 Pulse of the Fields is a Must, since you will probably find it with Brainstorms / Standstill / Fact or Fictions. I would say, this modifications of the classic build are quite necessary but actually i like the Deck a lot ( i would have made the 2. or 3. place with it, if i had had 2 more turns in the last round )...
So long, Greetz from Germany and sry for my bad English^^
Marius
Geoff, as I'm certain you know, I both agree with, and disagree with many of your points.
First of all, UW is becoming better and better in today's metagame. I still like splashing green (although, my build splashes it almost as little as yours) for Monastery and Krosan Grip, but that debate is an article in itself.
I'm not convinced that you really need to be set up to win the Landstill mirror, even today, in a large event. From what I've experienced, there will be a handful at best amount of players with the deck in a 50+ player tournament, and you can play the odds against the mirror - well, unless you're me (For those not in the know, in the last 5 events I've played in - both local and large - I've played Geoff in 4, and lost every time. He is literally the reason I say my build can't win the mirror). I don't think the general metagame has really gotten the message that control is viable again, despite my best efforts. Until we start seeing a few control builds in the top 8's of events as often as Thresh or Goblins, the mirror can be a throwaway. I'm fine with that being my glass-cannon strategy.
The issue of Mana Leak is one we'll have to agree to disagree on. Our decks are very different, despite their similarities. As we've discussed in person, your deck has the overall style of the reactive and defensive control deck, which dips late into a game and seeks to dominate the board position as late as possible. Mine is much more agressive, and has access to a win condition that ends the game in a much more timely fashion - Monastery. The duplicitous nature of our decks is the reason I can afford to use Mana Leak while you can't - I can utilize it as a tempo card, while you can't capitalize on the tempo it provides. This is the same reason I can more readily use Stifle. It's also the reason you are much better equipped to win the match vs. me - I am forced into the beatdown role, because your build is better equipped to play the control role. Playing the aggro deck is obviously not something my deck does well.
So what does your list look like now exactly, Geoff? I'm curious as to what you're running. As Landstill is the only deck I play in Legacy anymore, I'm curious as to any updates or changes.
I'll take a stab at it from what I can remember, if he sees this anytime soon he can fix it.
Geoff Smelski Landstill 2k7
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Cunning Wish
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Decree of Justice (Could be 3)
2x Eternal Dragon
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
2x Plains
SB
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Pact of Negation
1x Intervention Pact
1x Return to Dust
1x Pulse of the Fields
Xx Extirpate
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Disenchant
2x Harmonic Convergence
Xx ?
I agree with everything you just said except this.
Nobody has, as of yet, given any good or logical reason why with the proper manabase Landstill cannot support splashing White, Green, and Black.
The 4C Splash is perfectly viable. It's led me to four tournament 1st or 1st/2nd Splits out of four times I've played it, with only one actual match loss yet, and currently no draws (Though I'm sure this trend will end eventually). It's also lead my teammate to a tournament win, and it's led me to 4-0-1 in The Source tournament against some pretty capable opponents.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
