[Article] Unlocking Legacy: Scepter-Chant

[Kadaj]

In the aforementioned game where I got chant-lock, there was no opportunity to put Helix on a stick because if I didn't burn it early there was no way I would stay alive (I had to kill a Warchief to prevent myself from taking something like 12 from a pair of piledrivers) and I never found another one. I was under enough early game pressure that I couldn't really cast my draw spells without taking an obscene amount of damage, and even balancing casting removal with draw spells I still ended up at 6 life, which was why SCG was gg. I never drew Starstorm that game, which didn't help, but even if I did I don't think I had double red on the table anyway, but at least if I had it I would've fetched differently to try and set it up.

Scepter Chant is not a difficult deck to play, frankly, nor is it a difficult deck to mulligan with. Would you mulligan this hand? Delta, Delta, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Stifle, StP, Helix? That's the hand that ended up losing me the game even after I had Helix going for a bit. I didn't aggresively go after Chant-Lock, primarily because I know full well it's not actually a lock against goblins and recurring Helixes are just better than Chants. It wasn't like I chose to prioritize Chant over Helix on a Scepter, it was that if I didn't use Chant as a time walk at least a couple of times I would've died. In the end it didn't matter because I was under enough pressure that SCG killed me anyway.

As far as not counting Mox as a mana source, I don't it as a mana source because it's not totally reliable. There are times where you can't afford to imprint something on it, or where you are in topdeck mode and it's not even a land. It's more like 1.5 mana sources instead of 3, and I certainly wouldn't count it as a redsource against goblins because your only red spells are the ones you want most against goblins (Starstorm and Helix)

[frogboy]

I can promise you misplayed at least one of your Brainstorms. Does that count?

As far as not counting Mox as a mana source, I don't it as a mana source because it's not totally reliable. There are times where you can't afford to imprint something on it, or where you are in topdeck mode and it's not even a land.

Usually being in topdeck mode implies you have plenty of land.

[Kadaj]

Usually, but not necessarily. Especially since this deck only runs 2 cards MD that put extra cards into its hand and 7 cards that cause card disadvantage. And yes, it is pretty likely I made some minor mistakes here and there, but that's a given considering just about everyone here makes a mistake during every game of magic they play. I freely admit I'm not a spectacular magic player, and that it's pretty much a given I didn't play a perfect game of magic, but not too many people would've in that situation either.

Also, I apologize if my previous posts sounded overly offensive or derogatory, I'd just like to hear the logic behind Anusien's claims, in particular the Goblins matchup.

[sammiel]

actually the deck runs 11 cards that cause disadvantage, chrome mox for accel, isochron for virtual advantage, and force for tempo/whatever.

I pulled forces, went to 4 chromes, 3 iso, and dropped the tombs, added a bit better draw, the deck performs better in general, and although not having force hurts, what the hell are you gonna do in a deck with 11 cards that take two to play.

the problem is that people are trying to have their cake and eat it too, which you can't do in legacy unless you play goblins. In extended, you can run chrome mox and iso because FoW is available...but you cant run all of them. You have to choose between acceleration and free countermagic, but your free countermagic doesn't win you the game, it just keeps you from losing.

Also, cunning wish isn't card advantage, it's card parity. Sure, it's great sometimes, but I think a better solution is to drop it and FoW, run more draw and broader answers. I've almost got a list together, i'll post it when i'm happy with it.

[hi-val]

It's worth testing F/I over Swords. I like it a lot better since it's easier on the mana. On a Scepter, it acts like STP against an attacker by tapping it while it draws you into more lands, more removal, more goods. The other thing is a tactical move; it's often better to hold a Brainstorm if you have Scepter in hand because the card advantage from Brainstorming every turn buries just about everything (even Goblins).

[Anusien]

I think your the quality of your testing and your testing methods have come under fire. Instead of blaming everyone else for not duplicating the results you've arrived at, maybe you should try to defend your testing.

As I said in the article, I two-fisted over Magic Workstation. I assumed you didn't know what cards the deck ran but once the deck ID was made you knew the list (since both were stock). I alternated going first. My Chant lists were various ones including the most recent list, and the Goblins deck was the MonoR one from Machinus's DFD win, with consideration paid to when Tin-Street would have been better or worse than Tinkerer (worse almost all the time, because of how often Goblins had Vial).

I can see the appeal of Fire/Ice in the Goblins matchup. My concern is just how much worse it is in the Threshold matchup; the Threshold matchup is much much more important nowadays anyway.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that my months of practice with the deck or someone else's experience (Frogboy PTQed with Stick in 1.x) make me more able to play the deck than someone who just picked it up.

[Zilla]

I can see the appeal of Fire/Ice in the Goblins matchup. My concern is just how much worse it is in the Threshold matchup; the Threshold matchup is much much more important nowadays anyway.

Fire/Ice is arguably better in the Thresh matchup than StP when it's attached to a stick. They both kill Meddling Mage, neither affects Mongoose, and where StP removes Tarmogoyf and gives your opponent life, Ice locks it down indefinitely and draws you a card every time you do it, while acting as an alternate win condition.

[C.P.]

Fire/Ice is arguably better in the Thresh matchup than StP when it's attached to a stick. They both kill Meddling Mage, neither affects Mongoose, and where StP removes Tarmogoyf and gives your opponent life, Ice locks it down indefinitely and draws you a card every time you do it, while acting as an alternate win condition.

I don't think that makes it better. F/I cannot stop threshold from having a large army of bears and goyfs and beat you down. Considering the nature of the deck, I don't think the tempo gained by F/I will help you much.

[Zilla]

I don't think that makes it better. F/I cannot stop threshold from having a large army of bears and goyfs and beat you down. Considering the nature of the deck, I don't think the tempo gained by F/I will help you much.

You don't really gain tempo from Icing an attacker. Typically you break even. You gain card advantage, which is what wins control games against aggro-control.

[C.P.]

You don't really gain tempo from Icing an attacker. Typically you break even. You gain card advantage, which is what wins control games against aggro-control.

I got your point on tempo.

However, that still does not convince me on F/I. This deck does not have way of utilizing the CA to full extent. Your one and only sweeper is bad against thresh because it requires at least 3RR to do something relevant, and removals other than StP will not 1 on 1 with their threats. You are most likely to lose the counter war when the Starstorm is on the stack due to its casting cost and the deck being light on counter, so 1 card per turn with holding one attacker back does not seem very helpful.

[Phantom]

I think I'm actually with C.P. on this one over Zilla, which is kinda strange for me. I can't really see F/I being better than Stp vs. Thresh for a few reasons (at least this is my thinking so far):

1) You aren't always going to have a stick ready when you draw this slot (especially since they are both 3 ofs). Off the stick, there is really no comparison.

2) The stick might not stick around. They have needle. They have EE. They can board in Grip and the one that flashes back. If this happens with F/I tapping out a goyf (or a flying Threshed fattie), that goyf is still there and quite angry.

3) It's on a stick, but they play a second creature.

Basically, I think F/I is amazing in the perfect situation of a resolved stick that activated throughout the game. But really, how many of these games do you lose? The fact that StP is a better all around answer (and the RFG factor comes into play on occasion) would make me play it. Similar to how U/G madness decks run Brainstorm over Careful Study.

Still, I won't argue too firmly since I have only a little experience with the deck.

[Zilla]

I may have accidentally come across as suggesting that Scepter Chant can beat Thresh reliably, which isn't what I meant to suggest. You don't need to list all the the reasons why Thresh will likely destroy Scepter Chant, because you're preaching to the choir. Thresh has more threat density, maindecked Needle, sideboard Grip, better card filtering, and at least double the number of counters. Given the choice between facing Scepter Chant and Landstill with Thresh, I would choose Scepter Chant without a second thought.

With that out of the way, my assertions about F/I are working under a couple of (possibly incorrect) assumptions:

1. Most Thresh lists I see these days don't run Werebear and Tarmogoyf. They just run Tarmogoyf, and possibly 1-2 Enforcer or Dragons. Having played with and against Thresh a great deal in the last several weeks, my experience has been that Thresh rarely has more than one targetable threat on the board at any given time, particularly when Thresh is facing a deck that runs board sweepers. In this scenario, I'd rather have a F/I than an StP because I'm controlling my opponent's creature and getting card advantage at the same time. If you're playing against Thresh that's packing both Tarmogoyf and Werebear, you have nearly double the StP targets, in which case I would agree that it's the better choice. This just hasn't been the case for me. At the last tournament I went to, out of 22 players, nearly half were playing Thresh, and only one of them had Werebears in addition to Tarmogoyfs, so that's where my perspective is on the issue.

2. Anusien's list basically has no win conditions in it. StP on a stick isn't a win condition. F/I is, albeit a shitty one.

3. Being that this is a control deck, its goal is to survive to the lategame, and to generate overwhelming card advantage. Fire/Ice on a stick will allow the deck to stall to the lategame similarly to StP on a stick. Fire/Ice will be generating more card advantage, however.


That's the basis of my suggestion. And it's pure theorycraft. I haven't actually tested with Scepter Chant since Pithing Needle was printed. I openly admit that StP can be the better choice in certain scenarios. In a general sense, I think F/I is going to be the better call in most metagames, since it's better against Goblins, is easier on the manabase, is an alternate win condition, isn't dead against combo, and is potentially comparable in the Thresh matchup.

[C.P.]

@ Zilla

1.My team's list runs bears and goyf, so I just assumed on the list. I guess F/I can stop just the goyf.

2. Well, it does run angel. I agree that it sucks balls, though.

3. It is not really a control deck. It has absolutely no late game plans to go with. Even Its manabase is built in a way that the lategame will be a pain. It's is more like a deck that relies on soft lock to win the game. It is not aggro control, but I would not call it pure control either.

[Illissius]

Another way to cheat Scepter besides Research // Development worth considering is Odds // Ends. It happens to be in all of your colors, and even the Odds half is somewhat useful; Ends on a stick, meanwhile, sounds powerful. It's still probably better as a Wish target than maindeck, though, if anything.

Also, what about Memory Lapse? It's easier on the mana than Counterspell and a (very) soft lock with Scepter. No idea if it's any good; just throwing it out there.

Lastly, if you're not running black for Extirpate, Honor the Fallen could be worth a look.

[Wynk]

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable imprinting fire/ice on a scepter against Threshold. For one, it only kills meddling mage if they play that. Also, icing a tarmogoyf is nice, but giving their cantrip package, their going to get a stifle, a FOW, counterspell, EE, another goyf, a mongoose, etc. Its a temporary delay tactic that gets you a few cards, but will eventually leave the threat viable unless you run real sweepers like starstorm. And even then you need a BIG starstorm to take out goyf.

STP atleasts gets rid of the gofy/bear although its dead vs combo.

Question: If Scepter Chant maindecked EE, would it have a better Thresh matchup given that most of the threats cost 1 or 2 mana? Chant is a control deck supposedly, so it doesn't need to use a scepter early.

[Bane of the Living]

If I were to waste time in this archetype Id start ground up.

I see no reason to start porting the extended deck to legacy. Scepter Chant was a metagame deck, and a bad one imho.

I would start by taking Chant out of the deck. Taking Wish out since its slow as balls and focus on playing cheap threats backed by solid spells and an occasional Scepter imprints. Fuck sake Pristine Angel??

Add Tarmagoyf!

Opps, it just happened again..

[Eldariel]

I think the biggest problem with this particular build of the deck is that it's having an identity crisis. It's a control-deck that's built to be aggro/control. The problem? Aggro-control decks are better at being aggro-control than control-decks. Surprise? Anyway, the fact that the deck has no real draw and a low landcount just means that it cannot efficiently accomplish enough in any given turn to really rule the board. It relies on Scepter and Scepter is unreliable. Ultimately, I think the approach it's playing with presently is a bit wrong. It could be built as an aggro/control-deck with Scepter as one of the tools to attack the opponent with or it could be built as a control-deck really trying to push the game to the lategame and winning it there with its superior tools. It's really between the two now.

[frogboy]

Scepter Chant was a metagame deck, and a bad one imho.

This is neither here nor there, but the deck kicked the shit out of aggro and had a reasonable control matchup. It was really good at the beginning of the 2005 PTQ season.

[Citrus-God]

This is neither here nor there, but the deck kicked the shit out of aggro and had a reasonable control matchup. It was really good at the beginning of the 2005 PTQ season.

It loses to skilled Tog players on a regular basis at that time. Of course, Tog loses to Affinity and Vial Goblins.

[TheAardvark]

It loses to skilled Tog players on a regular basis at that time. Of course, Tog loses to Affinity and Vial Goblins.

Vial was banned a month before the PTQ season started, so "Vial Goblins" didn't exist anymore. And 'Tog players were able to start beating Affinity more often by Overgrown Tomb allowing them to easily splash green for Pernicious Deed. Oh, and I saw 'Tog outrace Affinity a few times due to dredging like crazy.

Just saying.