I dont think everyone should be so quick to shoot down his idea.Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
Cephalid Breakfast just turned from a decent matchup to a horrid one. A combo deck with Tarmagoyfs is just nasty. He takes tarmagoyfs down better than anything else. Better than Threads of Disloyalty, Smother, Swords, anything at all. It keeps all the other goyfs at bay at the same time whether they're in hand or future goyfs.
Hes got a nice fat body and gets played at your two drop spot to fit in Gob's beautiful curve spot. Hes not a goblin so thats actually a bonus in situations where your opponent plays an Engineered Plague or a COP Red.
Thresh is getting more and more popular and other decks in your meta such as loam and Ichorid are springing up. I think he might be an amazing meta call.
Now playing real formats.
What good is Chalice of the Void anymore, when you get right down to it?
We can't dedicate enough slots to beat storm combo even -with- Chalice as we'll almsot invariably lose game one. Threshold shrugs it off much more effectively now that it packs Spell Snare (Counters Chal-1) and Tarmogoyf (Ignores it and hits you in the mouth.).
So why not just ditch Chalice for Engineered Explosives? This gives you more Plague answers, better answers to random Silver Knight/Jitte decks, better answers to Threshold (Die, Tarmogoyf!), and isn't completely useless against Storm Combo via getting rid of Empty the Warrens.
I'd suggest dropping Chalice for EE and then putting the remaining slots as Crypt.
Also, for what it's worth, Pithing Needle is pretty good too.
I agree with Taco. Their are too many forms of combo now and chalice is just not great like it was when it was only storm. I think it it time to start looking into goblin fish or something if you want to keep the deck a live. with now just a 50/50 game with thresh and having a bad MU with combo, something needs to be done. So here are cards I think could go in the Sb or MD.
4 Spell Snare
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Extirpate
4 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Therapy
So I really think we have to pick a color.
I think Green is still the color to go with.
If we're all -that- concerned about opposing Tarmogoyfs, let's run 4 of our own in sideboard. Tarmogoyf + Mogg Fanatic wins the stalemate in a heartbeat.
Seriously, though. Goblins is getting a bad rap here. We might not have the same edge against Threshold that we used to, but Threshold thriving is great for Goblins! Having a 50/50 game against the best deck in Legacy isn't bad at all, and Threshold beats all of our worst matchups! Threshold is a nightmare for Storm Combo. Excellent! If people are afraid to play Storm Combo, they might be more likely to play something we can beat. We'd rather face Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast than any combo deck alive.
Green is solid in those iffy sorts of matchups, like certain Landstill and Survival decks, which will Thrive in a world of Threshold. Krosan Grip rocks Survival, rocks Deed, and answers Plague. It also handles random Humilities or Moats or Counterbalances or whatever.
Honestly, I think the Black splash would be a great option against Threshold and control metas.
It gives you
Planar Void
Perish/Dystopia (great with dealing with Goyf)
Cabal Therapy(screws control, hard)
Living Death/Bidding
Duress
The one downside is that it makes you worse against cards like Humility, but there are outs in Anarchy and whatnot and just using discard to hit it before it becomes a problem.
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Storm Boards
Its funny to see every color would be splashed this day except for white, the originel color..
Cutting the CotV is a good idea i think, you have to win 2 games with them against combo (you lose game 1), and that's to much for this deck, and against ***** the EE is better (and all/most combo decks, combo the most of the time with EtW), and if you splash 2 colors, he even becomes better. So Whit3 Ghost, if you splash Black, why you should not also splash green for Grips, or white for Disenchants (and maybe STP/Grunts).
@ Onphyre, i think you only splashed green? Then i should play Tormod's Crypt, in this meta, you really net something anti-grave manipulation, if i were you i should cut 1 Pyrokinesis and play 4 Crypt's.
I play R/g/w, thats very nice (but not so good against combo, but here i dont see that very much), this is the list i play at the moment:
Creatures (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan (i test this one at the moment, normally i play Goblin Tinkerer)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Other spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
Land (23)
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2/3 Plateau
2 Taiga
3/4 Mountain
Sideboard (16)
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Jotün Grunt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ray of Revelation
tips for 1 card out of the SB? Should I play a 3th plateau or a 4th mountain (is 7 fetch on 8 mountains enough to many fetch?). And what about Pithinh Needle, maybe i want to play him (instead of Pyrokinesis, that card was especially for the Mirror, but more and more players are going to stop playing goblins, with the Shooter my matchup isnt bad at all (i played 4 tournaments, played 6 times the mirror, 5 times 2-0 ans 1 time 2-1))
Mvg
Last edited by dlevsApiJ; 08-22-2007 at 03:01 AM.
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With more and more problematic creatures emerging, what are thoughts on taking a second look at Umezawa's Jitte?
It fits the whole question of "What do we do on turn 2" thing, it's a great midgame topdeck, it'll help us fight through Tarmogoyf more effectively, it's amazing in the mirror, and if it gets out in time, it's not bad against Ichorid, as it can not only help keep your opponent off three guys for Dread Return, it can also kill off one of your own guys at instant speed to get rid of Bridge from Below.
Jitte seems okay the only prblems are
1) It's not a goblin. This matters because of ringleader.
2) You can't do anything with it until turn three.
3) What do you cut for it? Probably Ringeader.
Personnally I don't want to cut Ringleader. Also, I never have problems against goyf with 7 maindeck answers, 4 Matronable. I think it would just be too slow and a mana investment when you want to be getting ton's of gobbo's.
Lies. This is the major problem with the take a lot of people have on the deck, how are you fitting in your sideboard answers if you aren't already sacrificing goblin count? Yes you have a chance of flipping it to the bottom with Ringleader, but unfortunately card advantage garnered by Ringleader just isn't enough to win against combo and sometimes it doesn't even turn the tide against Thresh when they've got Goyfs breathing down your neck. Sacrifices are going to have to be made if you want to keep playing the little green men. That's going to start with sacrificing Ringleader consistency for answers to the problem matches, particularly if we're talking post-board. Maindecking hate might be a good idea in certain environments... Perhaps cutting the Arti-hate goblins down to 1 tutorable slot, or even removing it to the board entirely, to maindeck more hate for Thresh or Combo matchups, whichever is more popular in your metagame.
The deck is going to be pushed to either evolve or die. If evolving means sacrificing your Ringleader consistency for extra hate and lowering the utility Goblin counts to a more Goblin Sligh-esque shell to stay competitive then so be it. Staying with the concept that if it's not a goblin it can't be good is not the mindset that should really be held onto right now, particularly in the face of either evolving the deck or having it be pushed to Tier 2 at best if simply for it's ability to sometimes "just win" with the perfect grip.
As for Jitte, it fills the crucial turn 2 when you don't have as many options for plays and gives you access to a lot of utility. It might even be better in the versions of the deck that have given up Port for Ancient Tomb to have greater speed into Matron, Sharpshooter, Ringleader, SCG, etc. Worth a test.
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Ya I kinda thought about what I said after I posted that and ya ringleader just even getting just one goblin is good none really isn't horrible.I still wouldn't enjoy taking out my utility spell AKA STP. But what is your opinion on what to take out?
Has anyone seen Fodder Launch in Lorwyn yet?
The current spoiler shows it as such:
Fodder Launch
3B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.
This seems like an interesting answer to Tarmogoyf, and it's also a removal spell that can be nabbed off a Goblin Ringleader or tutored for with a Goblin Matron. Thus Goblins would now have a seekable answer to a Goyf. It might take assistance from a Mogg Fanatic, but hey.
The only drawback is the bizarre fact that if you get one in a graveyard, it's going to pump Tarmogoyf even more as a result of being Tribal.
Thoughts?
I do think it's so good against tarmo, cause it can only kill a 3/4 tarmo (SBE are checked before -5-5 apply, so a 4/5 goyf will get the +1+1 bonus from "tribal")Fodder Launch....The only drawback is the bizarre fact that if you get one in a graveyard, it's going to pump Tarmogoyf even more as a result of being Tribal.
So u need fanatic here(or gemmpalm, but 6 mana in the same turn is hard to get, especially if u are under goyf pressure)
To find slot for Fodder Launch, it mean you should"nt cut fanatic to answer goyf 80% of the time, so it's going to be hard to find room for this
Fodder Launch could be best after combat; attack with some goblins into a Tarmogoyf, and kill it after with a launched Lackey or Matron.
I still run white, and maintain it's the best splash for goblins.
The reasons:
- StP is still the best spot removal in the format.
- Green gives no tools against combo which is just inexcusable.
- I've tried Blue and I just don't see it. It only slightly improves your combo match up while turning your clock and consistency to dog shit.
- Black is firmly mediocre in my books. EP resistance is okay as is discard, but I've seen combo decks repeatedly go off through first turn Duress with ease. Unless you're again willing to sacrifice your clock you won't have enough discard to rely on.
- In addition to StP white also gets what is IMO the best anti-combo card in the format - Orim's Chant.
My sideboard looks something like this:
4x Orim's Chant
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Meekstone
2x Abeyance
1x Swords to Plowshares (3 main)
2x Disenchant (2 main)/Echoing Calm/Serenity depending on the metagame.
In my opinion Meekstone is an absolute necessity, and not running it is strictly a mistake. It costs ONE mana and hoses all the creatures you're worried about but leaves your own untouched! The only downside I've seen is when it gets countered and makes Goyf bigger.
The 2 Abeyances were put in because when I was building my sideboard I ran out of cards to put in and commented "what I'd really like is 8 Chants." Well, Abeyance is the next best thing.
I definitely agree that Meekstone is underrated, but I think your metagame might make a pretty big difference on just how much of a mistake it would be not to run it. There's an incredible list of decks that aren't affected at all by it, including:
Goblins
Landstill
Cephalid Breakfast (Okay, so it stops their alternate kill of Tarmogoyf stompy.)
Ichorid
Any Storm Combo deck including Solidarity and Belcher
Fish, excluding possibly Jotun Grunt.
Certain Black aggro-control decks (The ones rife with Shade/Confidant but not Giant/Negator)
It's also only ehhish against Survival and Chalice Aggro, as Survival can remove it and CA can drop Chalices for 1.
This sort of makes Tarmogoyf aggro-control decks the only -incredible- use for the card.
Play the green splash with tarmogoyf. If you're running 4 SGC and 4 TSH take out 2 of each.
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@ Tacosnape
Agreed. However Black or Blue based Tarmogoyf aggro-control makes up easily half the metagame where I'm from. As shown by the deck choices of the Ontario guys at Gencon.
What did you take out to put 2 Disenchant in the MD?
3c Goblin Fish
Lands-21
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 TSH
3 Goblin Warchief
2 SGC
SB
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Patron of the Akki
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
I know Eldariel started a Goblin Fish thread, so I think it is a good idea to get it started again. The SB is a little different. With no removal MD, outside of Mogg, I felt the Gob MU would be bad. And it was, so with a big dude like Goyf in the board, why not run clasm to clear it for him. So then I added another big guy to try and help out. This is not tested, so no need to get all angry. I just thought the idea would be cool. I also tried to make it into a Thresh, but that wasn't that great. Any other ideas?
Well the short answer is nothing, actually when I first made the list it ran 3, but one got cut for Tinkerer.
With reference to the "typical" goblin list I suppose it would either have been SGC (I run 1) or Mogg Fanatic (I run 2).
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