[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Bovinious]

How very dissapointing this discussion turns out to be.
Did any of you actually test the card?

We dont need to test the card to know it is subpar in goblins, have you tested Orcish Artillery and Caribou Range to find out how subpar they are? Of course not, some things are just obviously good and obviously bad, one of the bad being Tarmogoyf in goblins, as thought by me and pretty much everyone else who knows vial goblins well.

[dlevsApiJ]

Something that might warrant reconsideration is Stingscourger. Initially dismissed for the lack of relevant targets to hit, here it takes that Tarmogoyf out of equation for a turn for the measly cost of 2 mana and provides a body while at it. Also handles other creatures and bla bla bla, but the main benefit of running it in some quantity would be slowing Threshold down so you can reach the lategame state you so want. It's basically a sorcery Snapback that happens to leave a 2/2 blocker behind.

I think it might at least warrant testing.

I test him at the moment, and he is very good, Vial makes him even better. And decks like Cephalid Breakfast decks arent happy to see it when their Sutured Ghoul is on the table. He is good against much decks.

My list at the moment:

Creatures (34)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Other spells (4
4 Aether Vial

Land (22
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meekstone
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain

Tips?

Mvg

[Tacosnape]

I have to say I like Stingscourger. A lot of decks will stall you off with just that single Goyf for a few turns, and the scourger can buy you a near-lethal swing.

[amok]

Splashing white instead of green gives this deck more chances against Thresh decks, thanks to StP. Although it is a big threat, the most problematic thing the deck (Vial Goblins with white splash) faces against Thresh decks isn't Tarmogoyf, nor is it Werebear, Meddling Mage, Mystic Enforcer, Quirion Dryad or any other targetable vanilla creature. Despite being untargetable, the mongoose is also not a problem due to its low P/T. The "real threat" comes up especially if they are running red (sideboarding pyroclasm) or board controllers/sweepers. Pyroclasm and its variants (Engineered Plague, WoG, Flamebreak, Jitte, etc.) are imho this decks worst nightmares.

3-4 STPs and 3-4 Incinerators, together with a lonely Barbarian Ring and/or a Stingscourger would be enough to deal with their creatures, their Goyfs to be specific.

Here's a list that should be considered

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring


4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin King
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Shapshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer / Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker / Siege-Gang Commander / Mogg Fanatic

4 Aether Vial

3 Swords to Plowshares

SB
3 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
3 Meekstone
3 Chalice of the Void / Pithing Needle / Tormod's Crypt

I should probably test it alot though...

[dlevsApiJ]

I think Green is better, Krosan Grip is much better than Disenchant, and 2 Tranquil Domain is also very nice against Engineered Plague.
STP can be cutted, play 4 Mogg's, 4 Gempalms, a 2nd SGC and then whatever you need in your meta (i play a 2nd anti artifact gobbo, Tinkeren and Hooligan).

With the SB Meekstone and CotV (on 1 and later on 2) your matchup against ***** isnt so bad...

Mvg

[FredMaster]

I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

//Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Taiga
5 Mountain

//Goblins
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Fanatics
4 Ringleader
2 Gangbang Commander
1 Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Kiki-Jiki

//Rest
4 Vial
3 StoP

//Sideboard
3 Armageddon -> Hi Controlplayer!
4 Krosan Grip -> Hi Plague, Hi Deed, Hi Jitte!
4 Pyrokinesis -> Mirror/EtW-Tokens ? :)
4 Meekstone -> Just powerful...

Btw: The Hooligan sux. You can't use him with Vial nor with Warchief. Just not very smart to play him.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

//Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Taiga
5 Mountain

//Goblins
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Fanatics
4 Ringleader
2 Gangbang Commander
1 Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Kiki-Jiki

//Rest
4 Vial
3 StoP

//Sideboard
3 Armageddon -> Hi Controlplayer!
4 Krosan Grip -> Hi Plague, Hi Deed, Hi Jitte!
4 Pyrokinesis -> Mirror/EtW-Tokens ? :)
4 Meekstone -> Just powerful...

Btw: The Hooligan sux. You can't use him with Vial nor with Warchief. Just not very smart to play him.

Well... the reason people sway away from 3c Gobbos is probably just the matter of annoyance to reach all three colors when you need them, and the annoyance of Wasteland and opposing Ports etc. I'm not saying 3c is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out why many people would not want to include the white splash.

Another suggestion, I would cut the Kikki for a MD Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is SOOOO powerful with Belcher and other fast storm decks that abuse ETW. Also, I would switch the Meekstones for CoTv. WIth your current list, you have almost NO game against fast storm combo and Belcher. MD Sharpshooter and Chalice will help you alot in that area. Other than that, interesting list.


EDIT: Hooligan does not suck. You can play him for 2 mana. You don't even need to use Warchief's ability to make casting him faster. Chances are if you want to take out an opposing vial or something like that, you will be casting him before Goblin Warchief. I just like him because he nukes said artifact for two. The Vial drawback is annoying, but I'd still run him.

[dlevsApiJ]

I played 3 colors, and it is to much, you dont get all the mana you need and 2 colors is enough...

Mvg

[Phya]

I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

*snip*

I don't see it. You're adding green only for Krosan Grip when white gives you tons of artifact/enchantment removal. I'm not saying Grip is bad but it sure as hell isn't worth splashing a color to sideboard it. Also as a general statement I'd just like to say that Goblin King is bad. There are enough great silver bullet Goblins to not play this fat slow hunk of crap.

@ Freund

That is unfair and dirty and cheap and right up my alley. You can be sure that come Lorwyn my team will be seriously testing RB Gobs.

[FredMaster]

Another suggestion, I would cut the Kikki for a MD Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is SOOOO powerful with Belcher and other fast storm decks that abuse ETW. Also, I would switch the Meekstones for CoTv. WIth your current list, you have almost NO game against fast storm combo and Belcher. MD Sharpshooter and Chalice will help you alot in that area.

I never even saw a combodeck in my meta yet oO
Pretty amazing because according to some more experienced players, my meta is full with Combo -.-
wtf?
Only sometimes there is a Life-Player but that is not the conventional combo, or at least not the one we are talking about.
But if there were, i'd definitely change Kiki with Sharpshooter

EDIT: Hooligan does not suck. You can play him for 2 mana. You don't even need to use Warchief's ability to make casting him faster. Chances are if you want to take out an opposing vial or something like that, you will be casting him before Goblin Warchief.

The problem is that you don't wanna hold back a Warchief - except against combo - just to be able to use that lil man's ability.
In fact you want to get a warchief online as fast as you can.
And in lategame, with maybe even 2 warchiefs on the board, the hooligan is just a pretty useless 2/1 Goblin to be thrown into a SGC or a Goyf-blocker.

@ Phya - Grip:
Mainboard, you don't have to fetch for a taiga, you can just rely on your
strategy. If, and only if, you decide to board the Grip, that's where your Green mana source comes into play.
Matter of Fact you just changed a maindeck Mountain with a Taiga. So I can't see any probs at casting the grip. The point is:
Krosan grip has split second and things like disenchant don't.
Krosan Grip beats Counterbalance and things like disenchant don't (at least it is not so easy to be countered - being cc3).
And that is prolly the important point. You can defuse Jitte with it, and i mean totally defuse it and don't just remove it from the board and give the opponent 2-4 life, which you as a Goblinplayer just not want to be happening.

@ Phya - King:
This guy just wins games dewd. It's just a better lategame Matrontarget, then then your 4th Warchief oO
Against any opponents who play red, it's just an alphastrike.
But you maybe right somehow. At least this man could be better supported, by for example, Blood Moon in Sideboard.

[Eldariel]

Eh, Tin Street works just fine. Basically all offending artifacts either come in before you wanna play Warchief (Vial) or kill Warchief on first opportunity (Jitte, Cursed Scroll, SoFI, etc.). Tin Street kills them dead. With Warchief, it's still a 2-power creature you can play, but the sitiuation where you need to get rid of artifacts is one where Warchief isn't available 90% of the time. 10% isn't enough to make Tinkerer a superior alternative as it dies to Jitte with two counters or such, making it positively impossible to kill a Jitte with it, for example.

Tin Street is the best MD anti-artifact creature you can play, and that's the main reason to go green in the first place. Grip and Tranquil Domain are just huge bonuses. Swords to Plowshares isn't a Goblin, so while it can be a metagame call, it isn't absolutely incredible MD. It's still a good card though, but weakens your main engines.

[Phya]

@ FredMaster

I didn't notice that you only run one Taiga, if that hasn't caused you problems with resolving Grip I'm seriously interested in your metagame. I wasn't so much advocating cutting green although I think you need to find another reason to run it. Also I've found the best way to deal with Jitte is to kill its creature.

I can't really see wanting to wish for King more often than Sharpshooter. In fact the only time when I might want a King is if I get into a stand-off against UGr Thresh, and even then I can see myself commiting to it and then watching it get bolted. I hate King because it's a weak card that looks much better than it is and then makes its way into far too many Goblin decks.

[diffy]

I hate King because it's a weak card that looks much better than it is and then makes its way into far too many Goblin decks.

Just think of it as a Naturalize/Disenchant that can be countered but goes to your hand when revealed with Ringleader and can be tutored for with Goblin Matron... I think it really is worth it's one off status in the sideboard as replacement for the fourth Krosan Grip because it's broadly usable (landwalk ability) and helps to speed up your clock in the control Matchup.

[Phya]

Okay, I can see it being a one-of in the sideboard... I used to have Ib there (back when Legacy didn't have 5+ toughness creatures), however I think that viewing him as a Disenchant is very dangerous.

Let's see what one Engineered Plague keeps you off of, Lackey, Fanatic, Siege-Gang Tokens, Matron's 1/1 body. Roughly as annoying as Chalice for 1. Now let's compare that to what two Plagues stops... your entire deck, including King. One Engineered Plague barely even slows Goblins down, when you wish for King unless you're in some crazy situation (like EP, Warchief on the board, double Lackey, Siege-Gang, Kiki in hand) it's actually worse because you chose to not grab a relevant threat. The other thing that really hurts Goblins is EP + Darkblast, in which case they're just going to kill off the King anyway.

In short, Goblins does not have to answer one Engineered Plague and Goblin King is completely useless against two. I admit that King has uses (too narrow to warrant inclusion IMO) but thinking about him as a EP answer is like thinking of Dark Confidant as a blocker.

[diffy]

In short, Goblins does not have to answer one Engineered Plague and Goblin King is completely useless against two.

Neutering one Plague while still having a (Goblin)Body is something very relevant in my opinioin because even one plague can take the wind out of Goblin's sails/stop the initial assault... Buying those additional turns in which you can swing unhindered until your opponent finally hits his second Plague (till when you probably should have drawn one of your 3 Krosan Grips) can be game winning against control. Also, I'd much rather have a body that can swing/pump Piledriver than 4 fourth redundant Krosan Grip... after all this deck is still Aggro (even if it's leaning towards the Combo/Control end of the spectrum a lot more recently as I percieve it)

For refference, this is the Sideboard I'm using right now in my Rgb version:

3 Krosan Grip
1 Goblin King
4 Duress
4 Pyrokinesis/Snuff Out (Still testing... Snuff Out is some good against Tarmogoyf but Pyrokinesis is better in the mirror)
3 Open Slots/Random Tech

[Eldariel]

At that, I'd rather just have Pyromancer to win the game. I'd also rather have Patron of the Akki to win the game. King is weaker than alternatives, while one mana cheaper, if you've got any chance you have to have enough mana to do something.

[thefreakaccident]

plague and pyroclasm are the only real sideboard threats to goblins... clasm only makes a difference in decks like thresh... plague can be used in anything carrying a black producing land... goblins has sideboard cards for plague, so why are you guys talking about king... use 1 of 2 things, grip or disenchant.... sometimes you can use a tranqility affect if you feel like it.

what is the thresh MU nowadays, I seem to be winning with thresh against gobs more than usual... then again I play the UGWB varient with plagues to bring in.

I don't understand why I don't get my ass handed to me with such an attrocious manabase. I usually see like 3 ports and 3 wastes in a game too.

[Tacosnape]

I would say UGW Threshold went from pretty favorable to slightly favorable or even, and I'd say UGR went from slightly favorable to even or slightly unfavorable depending on the build.

On the bright side, that UG Threshold that wrecks face in the mirror is still pretty favorable.

[thefreakaccident]

I would say UGW Threshold went from pretty favorable to slightly favorable or even, and I'd say UGR went from slightly favorable to even or slightly unfavorable depending on the build.

On the bright side, that UG Threshold that wrecks face in the mirror is still pretty favorable.

You know, I think it is funny... if you go between threads..

If you go in between people here on the forums, they will both say they have tested a MU extensively... but on both sides they will say they have a positive MU. Like you may say that you have a positive UGR thresh MU, but I could go and ask someone who plays UGR threshold a lot and say the MU is favorable but in thresh's favor.

I know that I should simply test the MU for myself and draw my own conclusions, but I don't play either deck regularly (in fact I have only played goblins 2 times in tournaments and have it completely built almost entirely for testing purposes).

I am a thresh fan, so I guess that is what sparked the question... see personally with my 4c varient, I have been having pretty good success against the RG varient of goblins... overall going about 50/50 (out of a lot of matches pre and post board)... I just wanted to see your guys' responses to the question.

[Jaynel]

Krark-Clan Shaman has been run in Vintage Goblin decks (Vial and non Vial) with a manabase slightly modified to include 4 Great Furnaces. I understand that Vintage Goblin decks run artifact mana, which helps support Krark-Clan Shaman, that can't be used in Legacy. Decklists can be found in this article.

However, is it worth considering in any meta? In a heavy combo meta?

Is Krark-Clan Shaman a viable and/or needed maindeck solution to Empty the Warrens? Zombie tokens? Nimble Mongeese? Cephalid Illusionists?


On another note, is Goblin Goon a reasonable answer to Tarmogoyf? What about Mogg Flunkies?