[Deck] Suicide Black

[Versus]

Dammit! How about Rotten Peppers? No, that's worse than Soggy Pickles. I'll have to think on it a while.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

As for the comment about tier, Red Death is tier 1.5 and sui is 2. Suicide's problem is definately reach, because top decked creatures can ruin your day. Even as solid as red death is, I find that many times it depends on if I draw answers or burn. That is shown more clearly with sui. Piloting sui isn't hard and isn't easy, but I think playing sui has to do with luck a little more than playing thresh, as thresh is amazingly consistent, except some occasional mana screw by opposing LD.

Well, it is definitely important to be aware of how strong the archetype you are playing is. But I have Faith! Well, that at least maybe Sui can become tier 1.5. Heh, not buying dual lands and sac lands is a breath of fresh air! Still, I think I am glad that I made the switch over from Madness. Sui Black is a whole lot of fun and I think I will keep it for a while.

Thanks for the matchup analysis Techno. Its a shame that the Ichorid is so one-sided. There must be a way!

[Galroth]

At one point I boarded both Leyline of the Void and Serum Powder because of Ichorid and other particularly poor combo matchups. Then I realized how ridiculous I was considering these types of decks rarely account for even a tenth of the field. So now I run just Planar Void, which is almost as effective.

I've seen alot of the splashes to suicide black, and I think you can't go just halfway with them. If you're going to splash for rancor and goyf, why not berserk also? It's just 2-3 more slots, and card outright steals games. It's not as if it carries 'gg' in its casting cost right there. And with those cards you have a basic build of Green Death. If you're going to sully your manabase with anything but basic swamp :P you may as well run all the best stuff the color has to offer.

I personally think that Red Death and Suicide Black are on the same tier if built properly. There's just alot of scrub sui-black builds running around that give sui-black a bad name. Or maybe I'm just better than everyone else (that would be a joke, I actually kinda suck; I'm a better deck-builder and theoritician than player).

Acceleration helps the Ichorid MU out a little. If you're running Chrome Mox in addition to Dark Ritual I don't think it's as poor (that's not to say it's good) - higher chance for your nuts hand to go nuts, also your turn 2 disruption is now turn 1 which helps... sometimes.

[Versus]

That makes perfect sense. Once you make the splash you might as well take full advantage of it. Unfortunately for me (this used to be trueanyway) I'm a better player than deckbuilder. Now I just suck at both

On a similar note, what is really the practice for including Fetches? I've noticed on Red Death they use 7/8, but Pikula only uses 4. I can tell you this. I play tested my Sui last night with Rancors and Goyfs. Granted 8 games tells very little, but of the games I lost I lost because Fetches combined with Carnophage put me down within Bolt range a turn earlier than normal.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

On a similar note, what is really the practice for including Fetches? I've noticed on Red Death they use 7/8, but Pikula only uses 4. I can tell you this. I play tested my Sui last night with Rancors and Goyfs. Granted 8 games tells very little, but of the games I lost I lost because Fetches combined with Carnophage put me down within Bolt range a turn earlier than normal.

I think 8 is the average number. Maybe that has changed with the introduction of Tarmy's... Also, I believe Red Death usually does not have Sarcomancy or Carnophage. Heh if you have 8 sac land and a nice dual land package, you could run BRG for Kird apes as a nice cheap drop. Edit note: Oops, looks like I am miles slow with this one. Sorry Versus!

Does anyone have suggestions for some sideboard cards that help the burn matchup? I might dedicate 3 slots for it, because Burn is played in my area.

[Brehn]

Get Jitte online and you win. If you really fear Burn that much, play Chalice of the Void @1. Also helps vs Combo and Loam sometimes.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, most of my deck pieces have come in and I finally got some play time. Well, I am over my Negator paranoia and just love it. I don't run confidants, so its nice to have things I don't mind top decking. I run all the little zombies, so there are games where I top decked the Negator and that was it. The Hypnotic Specter is a card that I am starting to have doubts with. I really never want to top deck it, and usually third turn you would rather drop something else. To me, its only saving grace is how beautiful a turn one dark ritual into Hyppie can be. There it shines, because its effect actually matters. I might switch out into using a pump knight or Giant/Annurid, but I have a hard time doing so. Its just that, well Hypnotic Specter is such a cool card. Its a bit childish to keep a card in your deck merely due to its cool factor, but I think I am guilty of that...

[technogeek5000]

The situation you described for hippie is exclusive to aggro only. Against control, prison, and combo hippie is one of (if not) the best cards in your whole deck.

Edit: I have been messing around with white death and i am inlove with it. I splash for stp and grunt and the deck just seems so much more powered then red death. White death's removal hits goyf which is extremely crucial in a goyf infested meta. Here is the list i have been using. If i can accumulate the fetches in time then i will play this at the next tourney i attend(already own 5 scrublands).

6 Swamps
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 Scrubland

4 Hippie
4 Dark confidant
4 Zombies (havent decided which... I might just go 2 and 2)
3 Negator
3 Jotun grunt

4 Hymn to tourach
4 STP
3 Duress
3 Sinkhole
3 Ummewaza's jitte (still need to buy the third, two jittes makes techno a saaaaaaad panda)

And for my precious sideboard:
4 E plauge
4 Planar void
3 Dystopia
3 Null rod (looking to take these out for less narrow combo hate, i just dont want to replace them with therapy or chalice)
1 duress

If your looking for a sui deck that beats ichorid and UGR thresh then this is it. All forms of threshold is just so one sided its amazing. This list is equipped with many more tools to deal with both decks like the grunt which is pretty ridic in this list. Also we have better removal so you can get rid of the ichorids and everything else that bothers you. Jotun grunt is also great against all forms of aggro and all forms of control, plus its good against stax.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The situation you described for hippie is exclusive to aggro only. Against control, prison, and combo hippie is one of (if not) the best cards in your whole deck.

True, very true. Man, I think its time for me to start making some car drives to get to where the descent meta is at.

This is my current list. The Hyppies, Gators, and Jitte are making the curve a bit high with only 18 swamps. Still it usually works, but I wonder I should fit one more in there. The Cabal Therapies have been working wonders as preemptive removal, and with Edict and Jitte I think my removal bases are adequately covered. Some tips would be greatly appreciated.

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Gators
4 Hyppies
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomonacy

Removal
4 Umezawa's jitte
3 Diabolic Edict

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamps

SB

4 Dystopia
4 EP
4 Planar Void
3 Pithing Needle

[technogeek5000]

Edicts are unfortunately terrible. Sui black has so much more options and edict is close to the bottom of the list. Snuff out, and smother are great removal cards and ghastly demises are decent to.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, yeah I think smother would be much better. Edict is only better against things like Mongoose and really does not matter. I am sure if my opponent had a Mongoose and a Goyf out, he would sac the Mongoose...So for my list -3 Edict, +3 Smother.

Actually, I would love to get another smother in Mainboard. Any suggestions? I am thinking of taking out a Carnophage.

Hmmmm, looking at your list techno does something in my soul. I came to what I thought was the promise land. I came into Suicide Black thinking it is a pretty viable deck that is mono and needs no Dual/Sac lands. But here is Mr. Red Death and now omg that is one sexy looking Bw list that requires the very same Dual/Sac lands I hate! If anyone pities this fool, throw me some Duals!

[technogeek5000]

Hmmmm, looking at your list techno does something in my soul. I came to what I thought was the promise land. I came into Suicide Black thinking it is a pretty viable deck that is mono and needs no Dual/Sac lands. But here is Mr. Red Death and now omg that is one sexy looking Bw list that requires the very same Dual/Sac lands I hate!

Thank you for the kind words. I think you will find out that if you try confidant over shade you wont be disappointed. Also confidant finds you lands if your worried about your curve. And yah the carnophage is the prime slot in your list if you want to bump the smother to 4.

If anyone pities this fool, throw me some Duals!

BTW, I have 5 scrublands but my throwing arm isnt that good

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thank you for the kind words. I think you will find out that if you try confidant over shade you wont be disappointed. Also confidant finds you lands if your worried about your curve. And yah the carnophage is the prime slot in your list if you want to bump the smother to 4.


BTW, I have 5 scrublands but my throwing arm isnt that good

Woah, exchanging Confidant over Shade is unexpected. Shade seems to me to be the best creature sui Black has! Hmmm, I just noticed you were not using him in your Bw deck. I was considering having Confidant over Hyppie, and in your deck you have the Grunt for some extra muscle. I am not sure if monoblack sui can pull it off without the Shades. I am definitely interested to hear your thoughts on this though. I have been wondering about good ole confidant for awhile. The point about getting that sideboard hate against Threshold faster really hit home.

Heh, dont worry you can kick the Duals to me too

[THEchubbymuffin]

i was just wondering this, but since jitte is the main life source, wouldn't a simple card like "consume spirit" be a good card. maybe like a 2 of. it also creates another possible win condition. yes or no?

[technogeek5000]

Life is not important to this deck. This deck runs zombies, confidants, and for me i run fetches. All these cards sacrifice life to get a better card out of the deal. Consume spirit is horrinly slow and weak. This deck normally doesnt use jitte to gain life but to kill opposing creatures and to speed up the kill.

Edit:@Teacup: I have voiced my opinion on confidant over shade plenty of times. here is just bits and pieces of some of the stuff i have written.

I cut shades a while back and it has proven entirely beneficial. A majority of the time it would be sub optimal compared to confidant, zombies, or hippie because i could cast those and play disruption. The times where shade was good it would not have been any better then a negator (which is whati replaced them for) because negator smashes face and doesnt eat my mana so i can attack and play more creatures/ disruption.

(my build focuses on the early and mid game and to many times this guy was a vanilla 2/1 for me).

If you go into late game drawing 2 cards every turn will always give you the tools you need to swing the tide of the game. Also he is a beater.

Also just because sui black wants a good early game
doesnt mean you shouldnt run confidant or jitte. When you go into the mid and late game which this deck often does then going into topdeck mode wont win you games.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Some good points techno, but Shade is just Shade. He shines in mid to late game, although he does not draw you any cards. Hyppie shines early game and rarely in mid. However, late game Hyppie usually is not as relevant. I mean, control and prision are not enemy number 1 anymore right? Its all about Threshold, Gobs, and the various combo decks. Hyppie is too slow to really mess up a lot of the combo out there anyway barring a turn one ritual into Hyppie. Furthermore, I think Confidant and Shade work beautifully together. Sure, Hyppie cements your card advantage with Bob but all that extra land you are going to be drawing with Bob will make Shade a house. So if the goal is a more balanced mid to late game, Shade has the edge. The deck will still have explosive openings, but now will have this big mofo swinging harder than Tarmy. Thats Sui's answer to Tarmy NO.2. Also, at least in my list I have lots of hand disruption as is. It could be different for you, because you are using Sinkholes (prolly the better choice) and I use Cabal Therapy. So at least for me, I already am hitting the opponents hand pretty hard. Also, both Hyppie and Confidant are lightning rods. Shade is too in a lesser degree, but at least when you are sitting at 5 mana (not unimaginable with an online Bob) Shade is not getting bolted so easy when you put him into play. Both Hyppie and Bob can be simply bolted first turn after you ritual them out, but at least with Bob you can duress first then play him. Same with Shade, although admittedly you probably don't want to ritual out a shade to begin with. These points probably have been made before, but this thread is moving a bit slow anyway .

For my Bob version, -4 Hyppie -1 Carnophage, +4 Bob +1 Therapy. I love that I can sac my Bob when he is putting too much hurt on me with the Therapy.

BTW, when are you going to make a primer and topic for your White Death deck?

[technogeek5000]

I think youll find that negator (and grunt if you take my white build) is all the muscle youll need. Like i said, just try Bob in place of shade and you wont be disapointed. If you dont like them then dont run them... but as for me i will continue use Bob.

Oh and its official, white death has performed so fucking insane for me i will be running it at 4x U sea at hadley... maybe this time ill take 1st instead of second.

[Versus]

Techo: You're running Zombies, Fetches, AND Confidant all at once? Obviously from your last comment it's preforming great for you, but that really is suicide.

I play tested a Suicide Green deck last week and found myself sitting at 10 life by the beginning of turn 4 on more than one occasion. Granted we don't plan on sticking around that long, but it happens. You're not finding that to be an issue?

Like I said I wasn't happy with my results, but then again I was playing against a heavy burn deck that bypassed my creatures entirely and threw everything right at my head. My own Carnophages and Confidant finished their job.

[technogeek5000]

Well how many jittes do you run. I run three so if im ever low on life I just remove a counter or two to bring me to a safe range. Also if its completely nessecary (like lethal damage on the stack) you can stp one of your own creatures. Using this trick with gators and ilk (like put damage on the stack with a attacking gator then stp it) plus jittes i have never had a issue of losing life from my own cards.

Edit: I just read what you said at the end of your post tea cup and i Loled. I dont think that my list is different enough from deadguy ale to warrant a new topic. All i did was take the weakest cards out of sui and replace them with the strongest white cards. Thanks for the kind words but I dont see me writing a topic for my white splash.

Edit 2: Yah, 1 burn deck isnt realy a meta. I suggest getting MWS if you want to test against something close to a metagame. If you ignore the jank burn variants, elf decks, and random suckiness you can actually get some results in.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Edit: I dont think that my list is different enough from deadguy ale to warrant a new topic.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Deadguy ale is not Sui black with a white splash. If Green Death has its own topic, why not White Death?

If I find that Bob is better in my deck than the Shade, I will be slightly annoyed. Those Shades were pretty pricey!