[Deck] Suicide Black

[technogeek5000]

I think i will be changing around my sideboard. Null rod is becoming to narrow with the rise of cephalid breakfast deck. When i first put them in my sideboard TES, belcher, and Iggy pop were the only worthwhile combo decks to play which null rod trumps. Also this was close to the time when AFOWinity was introduced to the format (I have no idea why its not played at all. It has better combo matchup then Vial affinity can ever have and chalice at 1 randomly fucks over lots of decks) so I reasoned that null rod would be the least narrow hate piece in my deck. Now times have changed and storm combo is on the decline while breakfast decks are putting multiple people in the top 8 of all the large tournaments nowadays. This makes null rod alot weaker and and since affinity has close to zero presence in the meta game it makes it even worse. I have turned my head away from therapy for to long i suppose so i will be tryin it out in my SB. Therapy is good against all types of combo not just storm, and it is extremely effective against random control decks. It also helps that i own a playset of cabal therapies.

So if all goes well with the testing I will make the following changes:
-3 null rod
+3 therapy

Which will give me a sideboard of
4 Plauges
4 voids
3 dystopias
3 therapies
1 duress

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It looks pretty good Techno. Isn't Duress good enough to have 4 mainboarded? I think it is really only dead against Goblins. Also, the 4/3 split with Therapy has been working great for me.

[technogeek5000]

Duress isnt good against aggro control in general. You can take out a piece of hate... woopdidoo. Occasionally this card is good takin out important cards but I always find that I cast all my other spells first before this just because there more relevant to the gamestate. Im not discrediting it because its good against the rest of the field, but the fact that against gobbos its actually less relevant then creature removal against Combo (im not even including breakfast in this... just combo like solidarity, TES, iggy pop, and belcher) is a big turnoff.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Duress isnt good against aggro control in general. You can take out a piece of hate... woopdidoo. Occasionally this card is good takin out important cards but I always find that I cast all my other spells first before this just because there more relevant to the gamestate. Im not discrediting it because its good against the rest of the field, but the fact that against gobbos its actually less relevant then creature removal against Combo (im not even including breakfast in this... just combo like solidarity, TES, iggy pop, and belcher) is a big turnoff.

Hmmmm, I wonder if I should take out a duress for a smother then. For me, 4 makes more sense due to me using the Therapies. However, I decided against taking out a carnophage for a smother. I might give 3 duress a try myself.

BTW, does your White Death deck lose any MU prowess against any deck?

[Galroth]

At the risk of alienating forever Technogeek ('cause we never seem to agree on the debateable stuff in sui-black... I'm pretty sure are experiences with the deck differ quite a bit) I don't think cutting a Duress is a good idea. Duress is probably your best tool against combo. If for just this one reason I wouldn't cut it to less than a full playset. It's also good against control, and usually not bad against aggro-control and aggro. Goblins is really the only matchup where I find myself siding it out, and I *hear* Gobbos is on the decline.

I wouldn't cut Duress for the life of me.

[technogeek5000]

Tea cup: About the white death thing... ill go over all the MU's and how the white splash effects them.

Gobs: The only problem that the splash creates is that jotun grunt comes down a turn later which is bad for lackey, but with this trade you get removal that doesnt cost you anylife... preserving your long game. Also the fact that grunt is huge makes up for him coming down a turn later then sarcmancy. Oh and waste targets but that usually doesnt matter here.
Goblins MU: Stays the same

Thresh: This is where the splash realy shines. Jotun grunt completely wrecks there deck. Not only does it prevevnt them from getting threshold and making goyf a walking giant but it hits for 4 while doing it. The white splashes removal doesnt gain or lose anything.
Thresh MU: Improved/greatly improved

Cephalid breakfast: If they plan on going the goyf route to finish you off then grunt will easily take them down. If they dont then you still have instant speed removal for the ghoul.
Cephalid breakfast MU: Slightly improved

Storm combo (belcher, TES, etc...): Grunt usualy only makes the kill faster here so if there in top deck mode it helps. Also if its a deck like iggy pop with a strong reliance on the grave then grunt can randomly screw them over.Also in a pinch if they have you with lethal damage you can stp your own guy to gain life.
Storm combo MU: Very slightly increased

Solidarity: They do the same exact thing as their replacements did
Solidarity MU: Stays the same

Stax: Swords to plowshares normally does the same thing as its replacement here. On the off chance that they run manlands (stp stops them from recurring) or there playing black stax (some people play it... i know that braids is run) then stp functions better then its replacement. Jotun grunt on the other hand, is pretty nasty. This guy stops your opponents lands from recurring so he cant repeatadly waste you or smokestack your board and he puts pressure on the opponent. The only problem that the splash creates is that you run wasteland targets. If you dont have any white cards in your hand then just fetch for swamps and you should be fine.
Stax MU: Slightly improved

Landstill: For the amount of landstill piles that run crucible, the white splash makes this matchup better. Swords rfg effect keeps their manlands out of commision permanently and grunt will get rid of anylands thats in the grave so they cant recur them. If they dont run crucible then all the splash does is put more pressure on the opponent. The trade for this is wasteland targets.
Landstill MU: Stays the same/slightly improved

To answer your question: maybe a little but the tradeoff should be worth it. Dont get me wrong, a wasteland at the developing stages can be deadly, but if you run confidant then it shouldnt be a problem. But waste targets arent as crucial as wrecking goyf which is run in neraly every deck nowadays. If you think my analysis of the white splash is off then just say so. Im open to criticism.

Galroth: Alienate me, im not so sure. I run 3 duress because where i normally play is overflowed with gobbos and aggro control. Duress is relatively weak against aggro control so running a playset of a card thats weak against 50% of the field doesnt seem like a sound plan to me. If it suits your meta then by all means run 4.

[Versus]

I'm really liking the Sui White build techno. I think mono-black just isnt cutting it.

Speaking of white, I found ONE person at the shop I go to who made a Legacy deck and wouldn't you know it, White Weenie. Even with a 1st turn double Rit/Double Hymn he outraced me! I know that NO ONE plays that deck in the format, but my Sui hopes are slowly getting dashed. The only two decks I've played against are Boros and mono-white and I just can't hold up. They keep pace with me early game and I just run out of steam. I couldn't even get a Jitte online as both decks pack Disenchant.

[Sigar]

Post a list Versus. That way it's easier to help you.

[Versus]

Pretty basic flat out Aggro-Sui

17 Swamp
4 Rit

4 Gators/Shades/Carnophage/Sarcomancy
2 Giants/Wretches

4 Duress
4 Hymn
3 Therapy

4 Smother
4 Jitte

We were just playing casual so I didn't SB. Not that Plagues, Graveyard hate, or Needles were gonna help out that match anyway. I guess the point is WW isn't played, so why sweat it, but if a deck that isn't played can dispatch me so easily, what about decks that are?

Hey, it could be me. It's been a long while since I played. Maybe I'm piloting badly...

[technogeek5000]

Id just like to post some of my findings as I have been searching other threads.

GOBLINS ARE SPLASHING BLACK FOR SNUFF OUT!!! This must mean god is real. This makes the MU so many times easier for this deck. They trade their good enchantment hate for removal that doesnt affect our deck (except grunt if you splash white but still is remarkable) If goblins ever makes a comeback then i believe that this deck will have gone past the established decks phase.

Also thanks for all the feedback on White death. Ill be playing it at hadley next week. I will post my results for the deck.

[from Cairo]

4 Zombies (havent decided which... I might just go 2 and 2)

Not a huge help, but I would go with Carnophage probably if you're indifferent about which of the two you use. Enchantments are among the lesser played card types in the format, and with opposing Tarmogoyfs there seems like no reason to add another card type to the main deck that could potentially make it to the GY. It's probably not going to come up very much, but a random Duress could hit, or it could get Counterbalanced or something, just seems like of the two cards if they are comparable enough in play, Carnophage is less of a liability in the graveyard.

[Versus]

You know what? I'm an asshole. I just need to get out and play decks that are represented in the current meta before I decide a deck isn't viable and think I know what I'm talking about.

Here's the deck I built for my wife. I think I'm beating myself up for no reason here. I mean how could I ever beat this consistantly? Even with Edict in place of Smother I'm a goner. If she gets a Jitte equipped knight online It's over. I play Negators early, it's over. Pro-white, flyers, shadow, and massive amounts of removal/burn/pump.

4 White Knight
2 Soltari Monk
2 Savannah Lions
4 Fanatics
3 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Skyknight Legionnaire

4 Incinerate
4 Bolt
4 Lightning Helix

4 STP
4 Crusade

3 Jitte

4 Mire
3 Heath
7 Plains
4 Plateau

And that's not even a good Boros deck! I just used cards I had onhand It should have Grunts and maybe more burn in the way of Chain Lightnings.

So lemme just turn that long ass post into a question. What COULD Sui do to improve this kind of match up post board? Besides getting the pro-white pump Knights, I don't see what could trump it. Are Boros decks even still played?

[Versus]

Not a huge help, but I would go with Carnophage probably if you're indifferent about which of the two you use. Enchantments are among the lesser played card types in the format, and with opposing Tarmogoyfs there seems like no reason to add another card type to the main deck that could potentially make it to the GY. It's probably not going to come up very much, but a random Duress could hit, or it could get Counterbalanced or something, just seems like of the two cards if they are comparable enough in play, Carnophage is less of a liability in the graveyard.

Or if he sacks it to a Negator. Definitely go Carnophage.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Heh, Black has tools if necessary to deal with white weenie. Black has answers to pretty much anything, but unfortunately our sideboard is not infinite. Massacre should put the hurt on! There are also pro-white dorks you could throw in. I feel your pain though Versus. Its the same in my area. Why can't people be civilized and understand our decks are for the larger meta

With that said, time for me to take a peak at the Goblin Thread...

[Barook]

What COULD Sui do to improve this kind of match up post board?

I laughed - and Dystopia joined the party.

Seriously, is that question ironic? Besides, there's also Virtue's Ruin if WW is such a big problem.

[technogeek5000]

Yah if you want to beat that boros list versus then run dystopia. All its perms are white except for fanatic so that should help you there.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Not very exciting news, but I was thinking of 4 Snuff Outs MD in my build. I feel silly for not using this earlier. Black is not so popular where I have to fear it being a dead card. I was thinking SBing my Cabal Therapies (where it prolly should always be) and taking out one Hypnotic Specter. Or perhaps since I will have 4 Snuff 3 Smother, I should throw a Jitte in the SB. Any thoughts?

[Zilla]

Or if he sacks it to a Negator. Definitely go Carnophage.

If you're running Negator then Sarcomancy is probably better. It gives you 2 permanents to sac (the token and the enchantment), where Carnophage only gives you one. Plus, Carnophage is basically guaranteed to be doing you damage every turn. Sarcomancy isn't. I wouldn't make the choice not to run a better card just out of fear of Tarmogoyf.

Besides, there's also Virtue's Ruin if WW is such a big problem.

Or Massacre, for that matter. Free is good. It'll kill off your zombies, but you'll have the mana to save your Shades and Negator could care less.

[Barook]

Or Massacre, for that matter. Free is good. It'll kill off your zombies, but you'll have the mana to save your Shades and Negator could care less.

Free is good, but what's the point behind a free spell when you have to use mana to save your creatures or let them die when you can have a one-sided Wrath of God for ? Plus, if they run pump effects (not crap like Crusades, I'm talking about Jitte & friends), Massacre is definitely inferior.

[technogeek5000]

Massacre blows in a deck that has a majority of its creatures in the 1-2 toughness range. Even if the deck could cast it without its board getting effected it still wouldnt be as effective as dystopia because dystopia is good against a large part of the field, not just white aggro.