[Deck] Ichorid

[argus]

i'm testing this build:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Careful Study
3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Wonder


mixer's idea was fine but sometimes you wish you had the combo first game and the leylines. i cut down on dredgers and a land in order to squeeze in 3x leyline (might not be enough but it needs some testing). i thought of cutting down one Sage to have a full set of Leylines

consistency is still there, albeit a little watered down. but you just improved aggro matchups which can hose you easily with their saccable creatures while hating on thresh, breakfast, etc AND keeping your combo

sideboard is still a work in progress

[Bane of the Living]

Ok lots of nice things..

Argus + Mixer

I like both your lists. Maindecking Leyline is a great idea and honestly Ives swapped it in and out many times. It depends on the metagame you expect. I would however go with all four rather than three or the card really weakens.

I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm.

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.

Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island.

Argus I do think 9 Dredgers is too few.

Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.

Might I suggest this build for anyone interested in playing them maindeck..

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Platinum Angel/Ancestors Chosen

Keep the 5c manabase since you have more room in the sb since Leyline is in the main. You would also have room for Chalice agaisnt combo.

Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain.

Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play.

Also Chain of Vapor will get your own Leyline bounced. Its not as relevant as it was in the Flash format but its still risky business against decks like Breakfast if running it, and the mirror.

Sundering Vitae would be best if you could convolk the cost.

Dakmor Salvage has gone in and out of my builds a bit. I ultimately cut it since I found it too slow but if you plan to play against shit loads of blue control go for it. Id rather dedicate some love to Phantasmagorian if thats the case tho.

Tolarian Winds is usually only as good as Breakthrough but its casting cost puts it in Daze danger zone even if your planning to play more lands.

It wouldnt be as good as jamming Carefull Study or Brainstorms in the deck.

[Bovinious]

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.

I think that quote just let me figure out your secret tech, it's Manabond isnt it? And if it wasnt Manabond, I think we should at least try out Manabond it seems pretty good.

[Bane of the Living]

The idea of playing Manabond and discarding Breakthrough and Cabal Therapy makes me sad.

[mixer]

I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm.

Sounds good, fairly good argument for 5color base.

Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island.

I don't really like wonder but my list had 2 sages already, as for platinum i just can't see why i would reanimate him instead making 8-12 or so hasted 3/3 tokens and swing for the win. what decks do you board platinum against? possibly im failing to see somthing here.

Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.

Yes i understand that, my standard list uses Dread package and all, however this list i posted was based on hypotesis that in many cases (i'd wish i have some numbers now but i really don't, that's why it's hypotesis - not fact) games you win on turn X with bunch of hasted 3/3 zombies would be won on turn x+1 with army of 2/2 zombies and ichorids. often FKZ is just win more. Mostly only against fast combo that one extra turn would matter and against almost all of those decks MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?

Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain.

And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.

Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play.

i guess you are right here, 5C base better choice.

[Bovinious]

Then you cast Breakthrough instead...

You didnt say whether or not that was your tech, obviously sometimes the card wouldnt be good in all situations but I think it may be worth a try.

And if that really isnt your tech, my next guess is Gamble :)

[Bane of the Living]

what decks do you board platinum against?

MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?

And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.

Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact. When you come across them get your auto win. Anyone following Vintage should be familiar with this strategy via Tinker. Dont forget shes a great way to keep from killing yourself by dredging away your deck.

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested?

The reason for Platinum or Ancestor is because sometimes you just cant win the game. There are bogus things like Solitary Confinement or your zombies cant attack through a Ghostly Prison. There are all kinds of strategies for this but 'you cant lose the game' seems like a great way to combat losing the game.

Ancestors Chosen will sometimes help you get yourself in a better position to be winning. Sometimes, especially in games where you face Tormods Crypt you'll be forced to a crawl. Goblins will eat alot of your life before you get your own offense started. Ancestor will give you the time you need to get back in the game.

Other times the uber return targets are nice are when you only have a single bridge or none at all but have a Pimp, Ichorid, Meoba ect and a return to abuse.

Other great targets include Bogardan Hellkite for its ability to win outside combat and Angel of Despair to basically remove any issue you come across, a new favorite of late. Fitting.

[georgjorge]

MD Leyline is fine for the reasons listed, but I advise you to play at least 2 Serum Powder MD or SB if you play Leyline (three is better). Serum Powder is not the worst card if you haven't a Leyline, since with this deck almost everything depends on your opening hand, and not on how much card advantage you get, so a dead Powder is well worth the opportunity to try for a good starting hand again.

Manabond looks not bad, but I can't really think of when it would be better than a Putrid Imp or Careful Study (of course, it's better when you have three lands in your opening hand, but that shouldn't really happen with this deck anyway).

[Tacosnape]

Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact.

Platinum Angel seems like a very bad idea.

Madness can kill it with Umezawa's Jitte or, more likely, counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Madness to a bloody pulp anyway?

Red Thresh will double burn it or counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Red Thresh into a bloody pulp anyway?

Affinity can Fling something at the Angel.

Cephalid Breakfast can Stern Proctor it (Does it still run that? If not I'm sure it has some answer.)

What other decks can't kill a Platinum Angel, exactly?

I also question how useful it is against most of the combo decks you listed. I think the only scenario where it would be awesome is against a fast Empty The Warrens, which doesn't kill you and which Platinum Angel wrecks (Assuming Belcher doesn't Wish for a Shattering Spree or Goblin War Strike.)

Most other combo decks, however, play out in one of two ways. Either they combo out and kill me before I get a move, or I dredge enough to slaughter their hand with Cabal Therapies and Zombies and Ichorids (Oh my!). If I Dread Return something, why would I not just Dread Return the Zealot and win? (You're not boarding out Bridges, are you? Bridges let you play Therapy aggro-control and have kill conditions!)

This could be useful in the Mirror, I'll grant you, where all they'll have is Chain of Vapor and maybe Ancient Grudge if they run it. But that seems like a reach.

[Bovinious]

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

[Tacosnape]

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

I had to look Gloomdrifter up. Pretty bizarre. I think I'd pick Blazing Archon over it, but still neat.

But yeah, seriously. I agree. The only reanimation target I could imagine ever wanting is Angel of Despair, and the situations for that are virtually so few that I'd have to maindeck it to make it worthwhile. The only three things I ever want to reanimate with Dread Return are Cephalid Sage, Flame-Kin Zealot, and Golgari Grave-Troll, although I suppose in one game out of maybe 800,000 it might be correct to Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp or Narcomoeba (Elephant Grass lock? Iunno. I'm reaching here.)

[satellites]

I've tested out the Platinum Angel sideboard for a few weeks now, and I'm not convinced that it's that strong. Most of the time, if I board it in, I end up not Returning it because there's a Grave-Troll that can win me the game, or something else better.

Thing is, Ichorid wants to be on the offensive. Platinum Angel is too passive. A better board slot would go to either more graveyard protection or a better Dread Return target (which, other than the ones already MD'd, are far and few between...).

[mixer]

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested?

yes, it's pretty much standard maindeck list, just removes small chunks of engine + therapy for leylines. Aldo, for board im still not decided. Ill run chain and needle for sure, also some rays and additional therapy, possibly also another sage to speed me up against fast combo and some ancient grudges, they actualy are fairly good at forcing opponents to pop their crypt (and thats most common hate i will encounter) earlier than they would like.

[Bane of the Living]

Platinum Angel forces your opponent to have an answer to it. Alot of decks sb out creature removal and certainly artifact removal. Im sorry if its not to your liking, to each his own. Im certain there have been better things to Dread Return at times but Im also 100 satisfied with some games Angel won me that I had no right or chance winning.

Its ridiculous in the mirror and here in West MA we have a bit of that..

[Illissius]

Is your secret tech like, Pull from Eternity or Research // Development?

[Bane of the Living]

At this point Ive had like 8 people pm me asking about my tech and nearly a pages worth of guessing on this thread. I hate to hold info from all of you but I really want to launch the new version with surprise.

IMO if your not running my newest version with my tech you should probably be maindecking Leyline of the Void. It's too good to not play in the current metagoyf and its a great card to sb out for your own graveyard removal.

[Bovinious]

This week at my local tourney I tried out my new version with -1 Deep Analysis, -1 Golgari Thug (down to 3 of each) and +2 Gamble. Gamble won me a game against 43land getting a GGT with a Putrid Imp already on the table, but in my testing it has been nuts whenever I draw it and can cast it, getting me a dredger when I need it, but more importantly getting LED/Breakthrough when I need it. A play of land, Gamble getting LED/Breakthrough is really strong, and if you get unlucky and discard the LED/Breakthrough your not in much worse shape than you were before, although it is a gamble (hence the name). I suggest you guys try it out for serious. And by the way, Leyline sucks pretty hard MD unless your meta is all Breakfast, the "Tarmogoyf meta" thrives just as hard off your GY which happens to put all 6 card types in the yard, and also the fact that you very often want to SB a card out seems like a reason NOT to run that card...

[Muradin]

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

[Bane of the Living]

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

Are you sbing in 4 Needles and 1 Grudge against it? That should be enough but you also have Chalice of the Void to play at 0 if your on the play. On the draw its next to useless.

Dont forget to Cabal Therapy for Crypt and slow roll your opponents when they have one rather than combo out. Putrid Imp is amazing against Crypt in helping you rebuild and slow roll. Try him as a four of.

[thejack]

I'm having some post board issues,
how do you beat a control deck that boarded leylines?
If you dare to cast a chain of vapor you are 90% sure for it to get countered.