Hi,
I want to start a discussion over the deck Hulk Smash. The deck is originally a Vintage deck that used Psychatog and Cunning Wish -> Berserk to finish the game fast. It's impossible to port the deck direct to Legacy. The deck is quite reliant on Mana Drain and uses Merchant Scroll to fetch bombs like Ancestrall Recall, Mana Drain and Gush. But with the possibilty of Cunning Wish --> Berserk you don't need that many spells in your hand/yard to win. Here are the possibilities of dealing 20 damage with a Tog.
(cards in hand excluding Berserk)
0 cards in hand, 20 cards in the graveyard
1 card in hand, 15 cards in the graveyard
2 cards in hand, 12 cards in the graveyard
3 cards in hand, 9 cards in the graveyard
4 cards in hand, 6 cards in the graveyard
5 cards in hand, 3 cards in the graveyard
6 cards in hand, 0 in the graveyard
As you can see, it's quite good possible to get a lethal tog fast. After searching the web and my computer I digged up a few Legacy HulkSmash lists. I compared them, and those cards where in all of them
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Psychatog
4 Force of Will
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
Sideboard
1 Berserk
I tried quite some different combination, but I found none of them perfect. I would like your thought on the deck. Some questions to start the discussion.
Manabase
1. five fetches or more?
2. How many Tropical Islands?
3. How many basic lands? non blue basics?
4. Acceleration? wich one; Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb?
5. Utility lands, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cephalid Coliseum?
Kill
1. three or four Tog's?
2. An additional kill?
Control
1. The fourth Counterspell?
2. Other counters like Stifle, Force Spike, Daze or Duress?
3. Pernicious Deed? how many? or Engineered Explosives?
4. Permanent control cards, like Chalice of the Void, Vedalken Shackles or Engineered Plague?
Carddraw and Tutor
1. two Cunning Wish enough? and Fact or Fiction?
2. Accumulated Knowledge any good?
3. Intuition with or without it?
4. Is Merchant Scroll possible? And Deep Analysis?
5. Other draw engines, like Shadowmage Infiltrator or Standstill?
Splashing?
1. Splash red for Fire // Ice and SB Pyroclasm, Flametongue Kavu and REB.
2. Splash white for Swords to Plowshare and SB Serenity.
Well, Discuss!!
Board Control : (10)
deed, crime/punishment (instead of EE) and edict are in. A white splash (single tundra) would be good too in order to randomly play crime. Maybe 1 EE to make it recurrent with 1*academy ruins. Academy ruins would also be good in order to include tormod's crypt in SB.
counterspells (7)
counterspell*3 + FoW*4
Draw/tutor (13)
The draw should be an 3/4*intuition/1*LftL toolbox with cycling and cephalid coliseum, 1 wasteland and 1 monastery. 4*Brainstorm of course, 3*FoF and 3*cunning wish.
Kill (7)
3 togs are enough but 4*tarmo are needed.
Lands (23)
I think that Hulk is a promising deck with a best clock and a better disruption than most landstill builds I have seen so far.
I personally think Hulk smash can be a pretty solid deck in today's metagame. Especially since Goblins is dropping in playability I could see Hulk smash being an efficient control deck once again.
Adding goyfs in hulk smash seems like a very good idea as well and with a tool box cunning wish board you probably could win any match you should not have.
Team Hammafist!
Gameplan - play a bunch of cards that put things in your yard. Swing with large trample-y guy.
Sounds like a worse version of Cephalid Breakfast, to me.
It's not a combo deck. It's a control deck that wins turn 5 or 6, that means almost as fast as aggro decks and a bit faster than aggro-control decks. There is nothing comparable with cephalid breakfast really.
I agree with Nightmare, Breakfast just does what HS wants to do, except Breakfast can just win turn 2 if need be with counter backup. I mean, to ansewr the OP's question, I'm sure it could be possible in Legacy and be an ok control deck with a semi-combo finish, but I think we have decks now that just do that better and more resiliently.
Originally Posted by Jack Burton
What's the rationale for this deck? What does it offer over decks like Threshold and Breakfast?
Tog is cute.
Tarmogoyf is butt ugly.
So is Cephalid Illusionist.
Not the replies I expected, but a discussion none the less.
First of all this deck isn't really like Cephalid Breakfast. You can't compare a deck with 18 cards needed for the kill with 3.
Hulk Smash is a control deck, that doesn't want to wait until turn 20 to kill with a Morphling or a Mishra's Factory. Instead of creating a solid soft lock( not allowing you're opponent to get board advantage) this deck tries to get through the early game and then sets up it's win quickly. Cephalid Breakfast doesn't try to get to the midgame, they rather don't, because winning for them becomes harder in most situations. Cephalid's target turn for going off is something about 4 to 6. Hulk Smash tries to win turn 8 or 9, after using a Deed or something to get a clear board.
@AnwarA101: This deck can actually be control. The deck can gain alot of cardadvantage, due to superior draw and control. I think you can compare it more with Landstill, than with Threshold. But instead of dragging the game into the late game, Hulk Smash tries to win then.
In Vintage the deck could kill on turn 4 or 5 most of the time. But we don't have Mana Drain, Ancestrall Recall, Time Walk, Gush or SoLoMox so you can't really port it directly, as I mentioned before. To counter this, most builds throw in more control, so they can they have some more turns to set up a lethal Tog.
Anyway, I really hope I get some more suggestions about the decklist( thanks Maveric78f) because you can say in every thread: why not play Thresh or Breakfast instead( Except the Thresh and Breakfast thread.)
BB
This is a pretty glib analysis considering the 2 decks have radically different strategies.
info.ninja
The primary problem with Tog decks is that they can't effectively control the board and draw cards at the same time.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Tarmo is good for stalling (tog too), as it's a solid defender and forces the opponent to play 3 creatures before being really a threat. During this time, you can just settle your draw techniques (and dredge) and counterspell what is really relevant (opponent's tarmogoyfs or removals on your own tarmogoyfs).
Isn't Hulk Smash just Dredge-a-Tog sans Dredge (and plus Berserk, but DAT can run that just as well)? Is it any better to Intuition for 3x AK rather than LftL + 2x cycling land?
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Regarding only tog's boost :
- intuition on AK*3 puts 4 cards in yard and make a +2 or 3 card advantage (depending if you already played or had in hand an AK). Which basically, means +5/+6,5 to tog for 5CC in instant speed
- intuition on LftL+2*cyclers is basically, far more dependant on your mana pool and on the choice of your opponent. If LftL is in your hand then by playing LftL on 2*cycling+random land + cyling once on LftL, gives you a +3 cards to yard and a +2 card advantage, which means +4,5 to tog for 6CC at sorcery speed but for 1 additionnal mana you reach +6,5. If your opponent makes the choice to leave you the LftL in hand, then you cycle, dredge and play LftL. For 6CC, it gives you +3 cards in graveyard and +2 cards in hand as well for a +4,5 on tog, but then you have 2 cycling lands in hand which mean basically +2 on tog each for 1 additionnal CC.
For an alpha strike AK is better but for a lot of control and reusability reasons, LftL option is the best. Typically, if you have 8 manas available, it's not difficult to make a +8,5 on tog. LftL gives also possibility of building a large mana pool, a wasteland recursion, a EE recursion, etc...
A well built control deck can do well in any environment... A BUG deck could be interesting...
lands//23
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
1 volrath's stronghold
creatures//5
3 psychatog
2 morphling
spells//32
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 pernicious deed
4 accumulate knowledge
4 extripate
3 intuition
2 diabolic edict
3 thoughtseize
sideboard//
4 engineered plague
4 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt
3 stifle
freakaccident, your deck has green mana and no tarmogoyf. I am confused.
Also, 3 Thoughtseize? I would up that to 4 since it is never dead. And I really hate the AK/Intuition engine. Slow and costs 5 to draw like 3. Lame, unless you had scepter or something. I would also play FoF. It is still quality draw and dig.
I wouldn't go up to 4, he is dead, once your opponent is in topdeck mode.
As for the deck, you know it takes alot more cards to get Tog lethal in one swing without berserk. I think you need either Dredge or Berserk. Without them the deck is just as fast as Landstill only with a lesser drawengine.
I agree with Fact or Fiction. AK Intuition engine is nice, but Fact or Fiction gives you other must counters for aggro-control decks.
@Morgan_coke: It's not like Tarmogoyf has to go in every green deck. It's a solid creature and it is nice with a deck that can throw cards in his graveyard like ...( well I dunno, something that throws much things in it's graveyard) but it is definitly not an auto-include in any green deck.
For this deck, I think Goyf can find it's place, but the deck would change more to a Gro-A-Tog build( with Goyf instead of Gro obviously) with more cheap cantrips.
BB
If I put this into a list :Board Control : (10)
deed, crime/punishment (instead of EE) and edict are in. A white splash (single tundra) would be good too in order to randomly play crime. Maybe 1 EE to make it recurrent with 1*academy ruins. Academy ruins would also be good in order to include tormod's crypt in SB.
counterspells (7)
counterspell*3 + FoW*4
Draw/tutor (13)
The draw should be an 3/4*intuition/1*LftL toolbox with cycling and cephalid coliseum, 1 wasteland and 1 monastery. 4*Brainstorm of course, 3*FoF and 3*cunning wish.
Kill (7)
3 togs are enough but 4*tarmo are needed.
Lands (23)
Lands: 23
4*Polluted Delta
2*Flooded Strand
3*Tropical
3*Underground sea
1*Tundra
1*Bayou
1*Swamp
4*Island
1*wasteland
2*lonely sandbar
1*academy ruins
Kills: 7
3*Tog
4*Goyf
Draw: 14
1*Life from the Loam
3*Fact or fiction
3*intuition
4*brainstorm
3*Cunning Wish
Counterspells: 7
4*FoW
3*Counterspell
Board Sweepers: 9
3*Deed
3*Crime/Punishment
3*Edict
SB :
1*Edict
1*Fact
1*Berserk
1*Extirpate
1*Krosan Grip
1*Reclaim
1*Counterspell
1*Boomerang
1*Misdirection
1*Intuition
1*Abeyance
4*Stifle
Strange list(not negative). I think you have to watch out if you use Goyf in your deck. As I said before you might be better of with Gro-A-Tog instead.
I have some questions too.
Why Academy Ruins, I don't see artifacts in MD or SB? Is the Bayou really needed, You don't have a the need for turn 1 black and turn 2 double green, or the otherway around.
You kinda lack answers against specific decks. What do you side in against a deck like Stax. Your removal is dead, but you can't bring anything from the SB. Same is true with Burn. I want to keep the last deck in mind, because quite some people take that deck to tournaments, because it's so cheap.
I tested Life from the Loam in earlier builds, but never really liked it in Hulk Smash. It is possible to play it in Dredge-A-Tog because that deck normally plays Deep Analysis to take more advantage out of the dredging. I played for a quite long time, but I kept using it less and less, so at a moment I dropped and never looked back at it again.
At final don't forget Goblins... Allthough they are on the decline, it's still a strong deck.
Anyway, I'm going to test your deck with the next changes
-1 Academy Ruins
-1 Bayou
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Cephalid Coliseum
And another SB.
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