There was a GWB Survival deck played by Christian Höttgen in the recent "German Legacy Open DM 07" which placed 1st out of 175(?) people:
Here's the link: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/art...ction=comments
The Deck:
Lands (20):
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (23):
1 Carrion Feeder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Academy Rector
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Withered Wretch
3 Eternal Witness
Spells (17):
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Moat
1 Recurring Nightmare
Sideboard:
Creatures (3):
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Karmic Guide
1 Loxodon Hierarch
Spells (12):
3 Krosan Grip
1 Rule of Law
2 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ivory Mask
1 Pernicious Deed
That is a Rec-Sur list, which is different enough to deserve its own thread IMO (particularly since it got multiple Top 8s in large tournaments). It's a combo deck, whereas the Survival builds we're discussing are midrange.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Thought I might post my current, post-Lorwyn build. Thoughtseize replaces Duress, and a Witness is cut for Doran. I've also replaced one of the Hierarch with a Feeder, which gives more versatility (wins Goyf fights, allows easier Genesis recursion).
Three Teegs are in the sideboard to fight combo and control; my SB lacks Plague because I don't expect to face Goblins that often, but if you do, just replace Explosives with them.
// Lands
4 [PR] Savannah
2 [PR] Scrubland
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Creatures
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
3 [PR] Eternal Witness
4 [PR] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
1 [PY] Spore Frog
1 [LOR] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [LOR] Shriekmaw
1 [SH] Spike Feeder
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 3 [LOR] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Im not into survival that much. But isn't duress better then therapy?
What about the treefolk G, when <name> citp search your deck for a forest or treefolk card and put it on top of it 0/3. Does it have any place in the deck?
It also gets 3/3 with doran in play.
I would like to see some beatdown creatures like 3doran/4goyf
<edit> is the hierarch needed when you can play a cheaper version in darkheart sliver. or is the fat body needed?
The point of playing Hierarch is so that you gain the life AND get a 4/4 beatstick. It is a little less relevant now that we have goyf, but I still like Hierarch better. He can get you out of a hole and apply pressure, things like Baloth and Darkheart Sliver don't do that.
EPIC Syndicate
-My heroOriginally Posted by nitewolf9
-I don't think this one was a joke...
@Nihil:
Spike Feeder. Iiiinteresting. At first I thought "What complete jank," but after looking at it, that bad boy not only can gain you life, it can also win a Tarmogoyf fight and immediately kill Bridge from Below.
I don't think I personally like Braids or Spore Frog, but what's your logic behind Kor Haven?
Anyhow, here's my current list.
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
3 Forest
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Basking Rootwalla
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void / Extirpate (Suggestions here?)
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
I might try out that Spike Feeder, though. Very very interesting how he's gone from being utter crap to somehow good in the modern meta.
Kor Haven is yet another colorless land I'm trying out in the one or two colorless spots the manabase can afford (yes, even with Doran). So far I've used it twice, once as an uncounterable way to hold off a Tarmogoyf against Thresh, and another forcing a Breakfast player to find an Abeyance. By the way, how is only 20 lands treating you? I may see going down to 21, but 20 to me seems definitely risky.
Braids may get cut in the future (or shoved to the SB), but I'd encourage you to test Spore Frog again. That little fucker switches your position from "I'm dead unless I draw X removal spells" to "I'm dead if my opponent draws more removal spells than I have discard".
About your list, I just don't like the maindeck Teeg. I played it for a while, then cut it because most of the time it was just a Mage pre-set on FoW. The second Doran is a close call, I may test it in Braids' place. And is Basking Rootwalla worth its space? It never did anything to me - I'd rather run Big Game Hunter.
Your discard setup is very interesting, though... I'll try something similar, probably a 3/3/2 split. But I'm skeptical you'd want the 3x fourths in the sideboard - or rather, I'm skeptical they're the best way to use those SB slots. This ain't Discard.dec, the disruption is only meant as protection (except against combo, for which we have Teeg).
And about your SB... those Harmonic Slivers should really, really be Krosan Grips. Two reasons for that: they give you an out against Humility, and they are almost guaranteed to break you out of Counterbalance lock. That plus a few other minor reasons (may actually hit Deed/EE, can hit Factories or Dragon Breaths) give them an edge over the Slivers' ability to be SotF food.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I think it would be a major mistake not to run Gaddock in the main. Conceding game one to most fast agro decks isn't neccessary any more. Gaddock + Thoughtseize should be a great combo suit. All of a sudden you have game against:
TES
Belcher
Cephalid Breakfast (stops Dread Returns)
And I don't mean running just one. If you have time to survival him up your normally going to win anyway. He has to hit play on turn 2 to be relevant vs. most combo decks. Multipules are fine and can be pitched to survival.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
A bigger discard suite deserves the maindeck much more than Teeg. They're better against aggro-control, slightly worse against combo, comparable or better against aggro (a 2/2 won't do crap these days, while TS/CT can nab critical Goblins or Goyfs), and better against control (your main worry is resolving SotF; your recursion can take care of sweepers in game 1, before they bring in the hate).
I would only MD Gaddock in a combo-filled environment. But these days, I see a lot more aggro-control than combo.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Fair. The mana curve has dropped considerably in my deck with Shriekmaw replacing Shredder, Doran replacing excess Hierarchs, and adding an additional discard spell up to nine. 22 definitely feels too heavy as my curve continues to drop, but 20 might prove to be too low with time. I may go back to 21.
I like the Teeg maindeck, even if all it does at times is act like a Mage pre-set on Force of Will. If that means resolving a Survival on turn three, rock on, I win. The fact that he's randomly godlike against Combo helps also. However, I concede it's possibly unnecessary.About your list, I just don't like the maindeck Teeg. I played it for a while, then cut it because most of the time it was just a Mage pre-set on FoW. The second Doran is a close call, I may test it in Braids' place. And is Basking Rootwalla worth its space? It never did anything to me - I'd rather run Big Game Hunter.
Big Game Hunter seems ehh to me. Everything seems ehh to me compared to Shriekmaw now. If I were going to run BGH I'd just run a second Shriekmaw instead.
The second Doran is worth it, I think. I was running three, but kept getting two in my hand. Doran's amazingness is that he continues to wean you off your dependency on resolving a Survival, as he curves out beautifully into a massive aggro beatstick. I might also point out how incredibly necessary he is to try and beat Goblins game one. He shuts down Piledriver and survives an encounter with any other Goblin out there, and he takes a lot of effort to Gempalm out of existence. He's great to hold down the fort while Tarmogoyf clobbers through.
The Rootwalla is worth its space for now. For one mana you have an instant-speed blocker, a guard against Smallpox, someone to protect your big guys from Diabolic Edict, a Therapy flasher, or an additional potentially 3/3 beater. And nobody ever expects the Rootwalla. I can't even begin to tell you how many Warchiefs, Mages, Confidants, Mongeese, and so on I've managed to devour by dropping him out. He's not bad to get without a Survival, either. He'll trade with a Mongoose or flash a Therapy early on.
On the contrary, I find that 12 discard is a huge benefit here. Some of your toolbox slots are invariably useless in certain matchups, STP is useless on occasion, and 12 discard backed up by Teegs slaughters combo (I might cut the board Shriekmaw for a third Teeg). There are certain matchups like aggro-control matches, also, where having a Survival resolved is the difference between winning and losing, and the full complement of discard assures you'll resolve them. I frequently find that eight is never enough, and I can't fathom going with less than 10.Your discard setup is very interesting, though... I'll try something similar, probably a 3/3/2 setup. But I'm skeptical you'd want the 3x fourths in the sideboard - or rather, I'm skeptical they're the best way to use those SB slots. This ain't Discard.dec, the disruption is only meant as protection (except against combo, for which we have Teeg).
As for the 3/3/3 main, this is mostly experimental for the time being. I know I don't like 4 Thoughtseize maindeck due to the potential for excessive lifeloss, but I know I want four in the deck somewhere and probably some in the main. I find the 6/3 configuration of Nontherapy/Therapy makes my Therapies much more accurate and devastating when I get them, though I could fathom going 5/4 due to Therapy just being ridiculous.
Also, I think it's obvious to say that if I went down below 12 discard spells, A Duress is the first cut. The second cut is either a second Duress or a Thoughtseize. In no way does a Therapy get cut from the 75.
It's possible. I like the Harmonics for now though for what they can do against Stax and Enchantress and the like.And about your SB... those Harmonic Slivers should really, really be Krosan Grips. Two reasons for that: they give you an out against Humility, and they are almost guaranteed to break you out of Counterbalance lock. That plus a few other minor reasons (may actually hit Deed/EE, can hit Factories or Dragon Breaths) give them an edge over the Slivers' ability to be SotF food.
I know in my list I was having trouble getting above 1 land in the early game with only 20 lands. Sometimes I'd get a bird and a land and that would be it for a long time. So I upped the lands to 21 and that has been perfect. I'm definitely itching to get my hands on some of these new cards and try them out.
Has anyone considered running four Shriekmaws, or in any case more than one? The card is like (Flametongue Kavu + Terror) / 2, so it could be worth trying. Also really fun with Saffi (and not bad with Caller) if you're running the combo.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I haven't actually tested it or anything like that but I naturally assumed you'd want 2-3 maindeck and the rest in the SB. Kills Goyf, you know?
In ATS I'm running 3 Shriekmaw and a Gilded Drake. It's a rediculous means of dealing with Tarmy. In any non-blue build I'm running 3 Shriekmaw anyway, with BGW having 4 Swords as well. Consistently killing Tarmogoyf is rather important today.
Also, this is Di on Adam's computer.
What's Drake for? Mystic Enforcer?
Do Spellstutter Sprite and Sower of Temptation have a future in a less aggro-oriented Survival build? Force and Sprite seem a fairly decent counter suite, and reaching the critical mass of decent blue cards seems no longer a problem.
Spellstutter Sprite is usually a Spell Snare for CMC=1. Not really worth it, IMO. The only deck that could use it is something like FS which already runs Cloud of Faeries and/or Weatherseed Faeries.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Tarmogoyf, son! I'll trade my 3/3 for your 4/5 (at least) all day. Also agaisnt re-animator stuff, which I suppose isn't as relevant anymore. And he has pretty mediocre synergy with TWR.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
I'm also running three Shriekmaws in BGW, for what it's worth, though I might still cut back down to two or jump up to four. I ditched cutesy guys like Basking Rootwalla (I'll miss you, Lizzy!) and Mystic Enforcer for more meat and potatoes, and wound up with this at the present time:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Forest
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Shriekmaw
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Doran, The Siege Tower
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Gaddock Teeg
All I've got to say about Shriekmaw thus far is when it's good, it's incredible, and when it isn't, it's terrible. There's nothing quite like demolishing multiple Tarmogoyfs with Shriekmaw and Witness, yet there's nothing quite like sitting on a hand full of Shriekmaws and Witnesses against something random like Lands! or Solidarity wondering what the hell you did to deserve your fate.
I don't quite know what to do with Thoughtseize yet. I tried four main, but it kept getting me into trouble because I kept drawing three of them and dropping my life total down below acceptable levels (Because I don't run four Hierarchs anymore thanks to Doran), so at the moment I'm sticking it in the board and carefully monitoring situations to see what discard I want the most when. However, I must say that 12 Discard and 3 Teegs is pretty strong against most Combo decks.
Is that really better than just Shriekmawing it to death? The fact that it's only one Drake suggests it's there to be Survivaled up. If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.
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