[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Citrus-God]

I dont know why people think white splash is better. And I agree very little to the statement that Swords is better then Lightning Bolt. I played White splash at Legacy Championships at Gen Con and got 33 finishing with a 4-1-3 record. The three tied games were tied because I couldnt kill them and the control part of the deck did its job, but then late game they did what they were sppost to with there decks and I was left to just stall out the game. Swords has its ups but the downs just dont work in Threshold.

It's the fact you jusy run Swords to Plowshares....

There is much more to the splash, like,

What is your Sideboard?

What is your playstyle?

What is your cantrip configuration?

What are your counters?

What are your match-ups?

All I can conclude is that, not all Threshold match-ups have the same match-ups unless it's against 43 Land.

[chokin]

You claim that red won't do as well against combo, but then you don't explain why. What combo decks is the URG splash weaker against than the UWG splash and why?

I did sorta. Simply put, Meddling Mage wrecks combo. Teeg will do the same(but then Force is dead). Aside from the usual counters (and possibility of Stifle), Red Thresh purely relies on the faster clock. White has Mage+Teeg to stop part of the combo from getting off the ground.

This is wrong. Counterbalance is good because it is not limited. Once it resolves it will trigger on any spell your opponent plays, at no cost. Furthermore correct manipulation of the top of your library requires minimal mana investment. With a Counterbalance on the table you can play a single threat and protect it while it wins you the game.

I think what I mean was that it is limiting. Meaning it requires a lot of mana to make it work successfully, meaning you'll have to wait for more than 3 lands to play much. CB in Thresh can counter 1cc, 2cc, sometimes 3cc, and sometimes 5cc. But in order to keep up with anything your opponent does, it's going to use 2-3 mana a turn. I meant it limits what you can do with your lands.

White has an advantage in the first game because Swords to Plowshares is much better removal than Lightning Bolt. Post board both sides will bring in Counterbalance and Grip. Depending on the SB choices, there may also be Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic or others. Neither REB nor BEB answers opposing creatures, and REB is not a solid answer to a resolved Counterbalance. Again, however, the white removal will be better post SB as well. REB may be better than BEB in the mirror, but neither should be run so the point is moot.

Swords is better removal, but isn't flexible. Red's burn can't kill anything beyond a x/2 or x/3 without the help of another spell, but if they don't play any creatures, that spell is turned into a chunk out of their life totals.

I'd say that White does better against combo because of Mage+Teeg, and Red does better against aggro because of 8-12 burn spells and Pyroclasm in the board. White has less removal(4 vs 8-12) and the same amount of counters(10-12). This gives White SOME room for more cantrips or Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives(or CB+SDT).

White has 4 removal spells(basically "must-counter" cards). If Red can keep STP away from Goyf and prevent an Enforcer breaking the ground lock, Red can pull through. All red has to do is swing, forcing a chump or double block(taking damage from Red's Goyf is more of a threat than White's from the burn). If White blocks the Goyf with a Goyf, Red can burn it down. If they have a lot of Goyfs, Ice them out and swing. Really, Red can push through a lot of damage, making the burn way lethal. That's why I say it's better in the mirror. I've played both against both mirror matches. White is very disruptive, but Red usually wins. Mage stops a lot of combo cold.

[Citrus-God]

That's just prejudice, thinking Red handles Aggro because it has 7-12 Burn Spells. Have you ever stopped and think about it that Pyroclasm is all the deck needs to work, besides 4 Lightning Bolts?

[chokin]

That's just prejudice, thinking Red handles Aggro because it has 7-12 Burn Spells. Have you ever stopped and think about it that Pyroclasm is all the deck needs to work, besides 4 Lightning Bolts?

I'm sitting here looking at the lists from Worlds. The best UGr deck used 4 Bolts, 4 Fire/Ice. The next? Used the same. The worst out of UGr that placed in the top 8 has 5(3 Bolt, 2 Fire/Ice). Each ran at least 3 Pyroclasm in the board. Prejudice? Hardly.

Looking at what other users are posting, Kabal is running 7, ArsenalPow is running 8, aTn runs 7, I personally run 8-12, Fredmaster uses 8, Ragnarok uses 7, I saw some(2-3) foreign decks running 5, and a German list ran 8 and placed in the top 5 at a tournament with 175 players.

Total decks with 8+ burn: 1
Total decks with 8 burn: 4
Total decks with 7 burn: 3
Total decks with 5 burn: 2

So...from what I found(mostly on this forum), most red splash uses 7+ Burn. Few run less, and even fewer run more than 8.

I'm cutting going down to 8 burn and will probably be playing another creature this week. I run 2 Pyroclasm in the side, will that go up? Maybe. We'll see what testig does for me. Pyroclasm is great, but I have only boarded it in in one matchup so far. How does it do against the mirror?

[Nihil Credo]

Janky idea - have 2-3 Electrolyze ever been tried in more controllish UGr builds? It gains CA, it pitches to FoW, and it provides a 3cc card for Counterbalance.

[T is for TOOL]

I did sorta. Simply put, Meddling Mage wrecks combo. Teeg will do the same(but then Force is dead). Aside from the usual counters (and possibility of Stifle), Red Thresh purely relies on the faster clock. White has Mage+Teeg to stop part of the combo from getting off the ground.

Thresh wrecks combo. You already have an extremely strong matchup against combo decks regardless of which splash you are running. Additionally, Counterbalance and Board sweepers can be brought in games 2 and 3 to maintain or increase that advantage. The SB slots occupied by Mage and Teeg can be better spent on other cards because UWG Thresh already has a powerful suite of cards to board in against combo. I'm saying that the white splash having access to exclusive combo hate is a moot point because that additional hate is not necessary.

I think what I mean was that it is limiting. Meaning it requires a lot of mana to make it work successfully, meaning you'll have to wait for more than 3 lands to play much. CB in Thresh can counter 1cc, 2cc, sometimes 3cc, and sometimes 5cc. But in order to keep up with anything your opponent does, it's going to use 2-3 mana a turn. I meant it limits what you can do with your lands.

Brainstorm, Divining Top, Portent/Ponder, and Serum Visions all allow you to stack multiple cards on top of your library. Depending on the board position and opposing deck you can often setup your next draw and tap out to play a threat knowing that Balance will be relevant next turn. Furthermore the decks is still running free countermagic in the form of Daze and Force.

Swords is better removal, but isn't flexible. Red's burn can't kill anything beyond a x/2 or x/3 without the help of another spell, but if they don't play any creatures, that spell is turned into a chunk out of their life totals.

Red's burn can't kill Tarmogofy on it's own, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the format. If they don't play creatures, they are most likely playing combo, in which case you will be shipping your burn spells to the bottom of your deck anyway.

I'd say that White does better against combo because of Mage+Teeg, and Red does better against aggro because of 8-12 burn spells and Pyroclasm in the board. White has less removal(4 vs 8-12) and the same amount of counters(10-12). This gives White SOME room for more cantrips or Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives(or CB+SDT).

As I said before, both versions of the deck handle combo fine. You can argue that one of them beats combo even more when you play with additional SB hate but that's not really a point in the deck's favor.

White has 4 removal spells(basically "must-counter" cards). If Red can keep STP away from Goyf and prevent an Enforcer breaking the ground lock, Red can pull through. All red has to do is swing, forcing a chump or double block(taking damage from Red's Goyf is more of a threat than White's from the burn). If White blocks the Goyf with a Goyf, Red can burn it down. If they have a lot of Goyfs, Ice them out and swing. Really, Red can push through a lot of damage, making the burn way lethal. That's why I say it's better in the mirror. I've played both against both mirror matches. White is very disruptive, but Red usually wins. Mage stops a lot of combo cold.

You're effectively playing the exact same deck against itself. On the one side, you are running burn spells which are functionally useless as removal without another creature on the board. On the other side, you are running solid removal spells, and additional cantrips to help you find not only your solid removal spells, but also your Gofys. White most definitely has the advantage in the mirror.

[Citrus-God]

I'm cutting going down to 8 burn and will probably be playing another creature this week. I run 2 Pyroclasm in the side, will that go up? Maybe. We'll see what testig does for me. Pyroclasm is great, but I have only boarded it in in one matchup so far. How does it do against the mirror?

Personally, I think the best thing to do is run Dragons again, just to break stalemates.

As for Pyroclasm, it's an easy 4-of in the Board. It's essential against decks with small creatures. That may be weaker right now, considering UGw Threshold is just better against the mirror.

Only problem I see with Goyfs is that you need a Goyf to be around if you want your Burn to be effective, so it requires a bit of set-up and setting for the trap. UGw doesnt need a Goyf to be good, which is why it is good right now.

Which brings me to the point that you need to run more 1cc cantrips. Finding Goyfs is essential in the mirror. Cantrips do that for you.

[chokin]

Personally, I think the best thing to do is run Dragons again, just to break stalemates.

As for Pyroclasm, it's an easy 4-of in the Board. It's essential against decks with small creatures. That may be weaker right now, considering UGw Threshold is just better against the mirror.

Only problem I see with Goyfs is that you need a Goyf to be around if you want your Burn to be effective, so it requires a bit of set-up and setting for the trap. UGw doesnt need a Goyf to be good, which is why it is good right now.

Which brings me to the point that you need to run more 1cc cantrips. Finding Goyfs is essential in the mirror. Cantrips do that for you.

I agree that the deck needs a lot more ways to find a Goyf. So what cantrips do we run? 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Serum Visions and...? Maybe Predict as a 2 of or a couple of MD Sensei's Divining Top.

@ Taco- Maybe my analysis on CB was a bit off, but I recall a few games in which I got stuck, even after agressively cantripping, on 3 lands. I still won, but it took forever.Thresh does good against combo, but I was saying that Mage does silly things against combo and Teeg will too. The end. I never ever ever said that Red sucked against it, but was implying that white has a few more answers/threats to combo.

[arsenalpow]

Red's burn can't kill Tarmogofy on it's own, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the format.

Thats why we run ice to tap them down so we can swing for the win.

Off topic: has anyone else run wasteland in the red build with any degree of success?

[donkyranger]

Yes, I run wasteland even though everyone in my team says it isnt good. I disagree. They make the Mirror a brezze. Because they most likely waste a stifle on a fetchland. I love the can in the deck. The only thing is that it has to take up two of the card slots in the deck because if not then it screw with the Mana base too mcuh.

[donkyranger]

Janky idea - have 2-3 Electrolyze ever been tried in more controllish UGr builds? It gains CA, it pitches to FoW, and it provides a 3cc card for Counterbalance.

I think that this although not as good as fire / ice deserves testing because a cantriping fire could be quite good. The only problem it does cost and not as good against goblins because you have to wait until turn 3 to kill the Lackey which is way to late.

[Citrus-God]

Thats why we run ice to tap them down so we can swing for the win.

Why would you tap a Goyf when you can just ram one of your Goyfs at one of theirs, just so you can Burn into oblivion?

I find the burn option more effective against Goyfs.

[Solpugid]

Yes, I run wasteland even though everyone in my team says it isnt good. I disagree. They make the Mirror a brezze. Because they most likely waste a stifle on a fetchland. I love the can in the deck. The only thing is that it has to take up two of the card slots in the deck because if not then it screw with the Mana base too mcuh.

See, I just don't understand this logic at all. Yes, you're destroying a possibly important land (maybe the only green source your opponent has) but you and your opponent have the same mana base (usually) besides the wastelands. Therefore, in playing wastelands you limit your ability to find colored mana just as much as you do your opponent by destroying his or her land. BUT (and this is important) your opponent gets to tap that land for mana before you get to kill it.

So, all factors besides wasteland help equal, you are rarely getting an advantage in the mirror, and even open yourself up more to stifles. How is this good again? Now in other matchups I could see them being usable (i.e. waste a tundra, drop a goyf against Landstill), although not that useful.

[Berzerked]

Therefore, in playing wastelands you limit your ability to find colored mana just as much as you do your opponent by destroying his or her land.

The only thing is that it has to take up two of the card slots in the deck because if not then it screw with the Mana base too mcuh.

He has the exact same chance to find color, plus he runs two free, uncounterable LD cards that just happen to also tap for mana. Possibly in the Pithing Needle slot. Seems like a decent option to me.

[Solpugid]

Oh ok, I missed that spells were cut instead of lands. However, I still don't like that call in the three-color build. Dropping spells just seems terrible against any deck that can't be land-screwed easily, such as 2-3 color landstills, combo, and most aggro (the top of the list being goblins). Oh well, I haven't tested it so maybe my opinions shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Citrus-God]

What Wasteland does...

-Forces you to make more aggressive mulligans.

-Harder to keep UU open for Counterbalance, and Counterspell.

So my conclusion is, it is possible to run Wastelands and Stifles in UGR Thresh... Burn makes this deck just good in general, and with this clock, it should make UGR good.


Here's my list of UGR Wasteland-Grow


// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Volcanic Island


// Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf


// Spells 34
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 REMAND!!!!
4 Lightning Bolt


// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty



YES, I LOVE REMAND!!!

I play time walks in this deck. I Waste, I stifle, I make it even worse and Remand. When a Goyf is just applying the beatz, Remands are nuts.

Need to resolve a Goyf, why not Remand it? My god, am I in love with them.

[godryk]

Wouldn't you play any sorcery cantrip over Opt? It seems to me you have a very low sorcery count to feed Goyf properly. I suppose opt is there to allow you to stay untapped in order to play stifle/spell snare if necesary, but I think that any goyf deck should run at least 8 sorceries.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I don't understand how you guys are cutting blue sources for Wastelands. If this deck only needs 14 islands, why have we run 17 for so long?

[DragoFireheart]

I also don't understand how this deck can manage to run 4-wastelands with only 14 islands. Seems like we are cutting the mana base a bit close?

[kabal]

I don't understand how you guys are cutting blue sources for Wastelands. If this deck only needs 14 islands, why have we run 17 for so long?

That is a good question. But can it really function with only 14 islands? People that have been playing a wasteland build, how often do you have to aggressively mulligan? When you end up playing against what could be categorized as a mono color deck, how often do the wastelands hurt you? Onto of that, does the wasteland build have trouble finding a second color mana source? Is this the reason to just keep your build to U/G?