I run 4x Ritual, 4x Duress, and 4x Thoughtseize instead of the 1cc critters. Toss in 3x Chrome Mox and my turn 1 openings are as consistent as any of the decks I've seen posted thus far. It is possible to have a smoothe curve without the 1cc critters.
However, I don't run equipment. Most of the time I worry just about having enough critters out and doing stuff rather than choosing which critter to equip. I find that the builds with the larger cc creatures versus those with the 1cc zombies, are more explosive though a little less consistent (less threats = less consistent).
I also think that if your build favors one of these over the other, push it a bit further to make it either more explosive or more consistent. Find out where the limit of too much is, et al. Basically justify, beyond only your mana curve, why cards in your deck belong. How do they fit into the overall strategy of the deck and why is one route superior to another?
Heh, I have not so fond memories of chrome mox... I used to run it before I played Sui Black and it made my deck far less consistent. Its been a good 8 months since I did anything with the mox, but this is what I found. For it to be useful, it had to come up really early. If it did, giving up a business spell was generally a fair trade for acceleration purposes. However, with only 3 moxes your chances of getting it the first 2 turns aren't so hot. Another thing about Chrome Moxes, you just hate to see them in multiples.... They were terrible top decks when I needed an actual land and was forced to give up some valuable business just so I wouldn't be mana starved. It might be time for me to try it again, but I still remember my disgust for the card. I respect your choice of playing it, and I love it in your build. Still, I think I am going to pass for now.Originally Posted by Galroth
That was a strong comment about the difference between builds with the 1cc zombies or just all big men. I think that sums it up perfectly. I prefer the consistency path myself, and those little dudes are amazing for that. They are very helpful in my build as a four of and I think it would be a tough cut. I suppose if you go for a smaller threat density and no jitte, than they are less justified. However, I can't see Sui without the jitte at all. It just gives this deck so much versatility. Really though, can this deck be competitive by going for the crash and burn beatdown anymore. This deck DOES need answers when the opponent is dropping his highly efficient creatures or something like Tombstalker.
Also, I think I am warming up to the Shade again... I hate the times where I have to hold back for a turn and this does pop up enough times for it to be a issue, but next turn I will be crashing with so much force with the Shade. I think he is fine as a three of. I usually dont want to see him early game, and I love it when I drop them a bit later on with all the mana available to pump him with. For those hesitant to use Bob, these two cards do in fact love each other. You maybe have to hold back a turn to play that card you just topdecked, but the land and rits you get with Bob make Shade a nightmare in the next turn.
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 10-14-2007 at 03:48 PM.
I kind of see Chrome Mox and the Zombies as very similar. They both are good first turn plays, but are kind of meh after that. I think the key is to play cards that you are never dissapointed to topdeck. I've said it before - Shade is amazing (at least I think so). He's good in the early game as a 2/1 for 2, and he only gets better as the game progresses. I always saw Suicide Black as attempting to have all of the proactive answers at once which is hard to do. The best way we can do that is to have cards that do multiple things - Hypnotic Specter beats and forces discards, Hymn 2 for 1's, etc.
The only thing I will challenge in that post is the Shade being good in the early game. Early game you would rather a 3/3 or a 5/5 with trample. A 2/1 or even a 3/2 doesn't cut it for me. However, yeah the Shade becomes a nightmare mid to late. Also I totally agree with you on Specter and Hymn and their awesomeness, however its tough find answers like that. I suppose Jailer would be a weak example, but kinda 2 for 1. The Jitte I think is the epitome of being a proactive answer and so versatile. Bob is a shining example of this as well, and the new Thoughtseize is pretty much whatever you want it to be early on. Speaking of Thoughtseize, the life loss is pretty annoying when I just want to take a peak at my opponent's hand to ensure my spells will resolve against control. But I guess that is a minor qualm.
I might try a build with 4 Snuff Outs and no eat me zombies. It gives you an out if your opponent is playing Gobs, and maybe the loss of life won't be as bad without the little dudes munching on me. Anyway, I think the chrome mox plan, the 1cc zombies, or something else should remain in the deck. Gobs are not dead yet.
Okay, I agree that Nantuko Shade is not "good" early game, but he's not bad either. I never feel bad dropping a Shade on turn two if it's the best play I have because it's a threat the opponent must deal with pretty soon. Also he's one of the few creatures Tarmogoyf fears. As for the Goblins matchup - the metagame has shifted over to Threshold and I think we should tune the deck back to beating ******** more and sideboard against Goblins. Anwar's build has a better matchup against Threshold than the weenie build so maybe we should look more into that. I'm not saying that Goblins is dead or that it can't come back. Just maybe that we should accept that matchup and focus on beating the most popular deck right now.
The thing is, dropping a shade turn 2 is never the best play. Sometimes even dropping shade isnt the best play on turn 4. This happens often because all the current lists run playsets of confidant. And actually, shade isnt that big of a threat to goyf because you need to consistently devote 4-6 mana every turn to just hold it back. If you have a bob out then this is never the best thing and i would much rather have a 3/3 or 5/5 so i can cast my grunts or removal. Oh and about beating the most popular deck.
WHITE SPLASH
The white build probably has the best thresh matchup out of all the sui builds. My build runs a creature base that is a mix of the weenie and anwars build.
Call me Ishmael
Okay, we get it. Sure, your white splash probably has a good matchup against Threshold and other good decks. Wonderful for you. I don't want to splash because I prefer the consistency of one color. Go have fun playing your deck while we work on ways to make Mono-Black Suicide work better. Stop telling me to play your deck.
My first question is why in the hell you're holding Shade back?! Yes, I supose you could spend your time blocking with Shade, but in my experience I'm usually on the offense against Thresh. They play the control game 'til they're able to swing it around. Shade should be attacking. The fact that it can deal with Goyf is just a plus. I'd much rather race Goyf though.
I really don't see any clear advantage to the white splash. The two cards it gains are Stp and Jotun Grunt. Both are good, but I don't think either is that astoundingly great that the white splash is clearly better.
Swords to Plowshares is not so much better than Snuff Out. One offers the opponent life, one takes yours away. Stp requires you run a white splash. The tempo of both is relatively equal.
Jotun Grunt is a great beater, but he doesn't stick around. Suicide black has few enough creatures anyways that this makes me worry. Moreover, running Jotun Grunt requires that you don't run, or atleast run less of Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Phyrexian Negator, or Dark Confidant, all or which are strong creatures. Arguably any of these creatures are just as good as Grunt in most matchups, though Grunt does have a slight advantage over most of them against Thresh.
Then there are the inherit disadvantages of running multiple colors. A more fragile manabase, the potential issues of abusing your mana acceleration, etc.
Beyond Threshold I still don't see too many matchups where the White splash is favorable. Of course, neither mono-black or the white splash are putting up significant results. So unless we're able to convince each other with rhetoric (and people entrenched in their positions are very unlikely to concede their position based on another person's opinion) then any definitive answer is unlikely to be reached.
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EDIT:
I'm crazy about Chrome Mox and this is one of the few reasons I refuse to switch over to the white splash. I think guarenteed mana acceleration is what suicide black needs to give it that extra boost over other decks. Suicide black already has a solid selection of cards. I think the direction suicide black should take is to rely on some early disruption, followed by some accelerated beats.
One reason I find myself holding back with shade, is due to it not being big enough. Early on they can just trade, and I usually don't want to do that. I would rather my shade lived long enough to become a true beast. Of course this changes if you have a rit in hand and of course when the game gets to a certain stage. Another reason is, there are plenty of times where the better play will be to use that mana for something better than Shade pump. Early to mid, I would rather be dropping my jittes or Gators. However, I think I love Shade as a three of because then I usually see it when I want it.... which is the mid game. I am beginning to love my Bob fishing me a shade when there are like 5 lands down and a rit in hand. This happens all the time provided they don't kill poor Bob.
About the white splash, I think it has potential. It improved two MU's that see quite a bit of play, Threshold and more importantly Ichorid. I say more importantly, because for Mono Black Sui its almost an auto loss. StP hits far more creatures than Snuff Out does, and overall I give it the nod. Same with Grunt vs. Rotting Giant and Shade. If your meta doesn't have lots of non-basic hate, the white splash is a no brainer to me. However, I think the meta is moving more and more to hate end of the spectrum. I think it could be a tough call and you might lose some random matches with the white splash, but it has the edge over a top tier deck and one of our worst match-ups. That being said, I am tired of spending money (got myself a few sinkholes recently) and am going to work on the mono splash for a while.
On a different note, I think Dead guy Ale is going to make a comeback. I think the format is moving in favor of more controlly aggro than smash face aggro. What I am trying to suggest is, do you think we need to make this deck faster and hit harder or improved disruption package? Your first response will probably be the former, but I ask you to think about it. I seen it said all over the place, that on the whole decks' manabases are weakening. Is it time to fit another sinkhole or wasteland in the deck? Or should we run more discard like Galroth suggest?
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 10-16-2007 at 12:31 AM.
So I've developed a second interest in this deck thanks to Thoughtseize and Oona's Prowler, though I don't know if I actually like Oona enough to run or not. Oona seems awesome, but Oona + Jitte = not a combo.
Anyhow, maindeck Leylines are completely badass, for the record. Maindeck Leylines gives you even better matches against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, and it goes a long way towards making Tarmogoyf manageable, especially since Sui Black doesn't maindeck Fetchlands or Instants. It's not uncommon for Tarmogoyf to cap out around a manageable 2/3 or 3/4.
My current build is as such:
18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Stromgald Crusader
2 Hand of Cruelty
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 Cursed Scroll
EDIT: It's worth noting that I'm trying out Gathan Raiders.
Why not? They have to discard two cards per turn to keep Jitte from triggering.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
That is probably the point. It gives the opponent the decision. And more then likely it will be two dead cards. Still seams good, however.
@ Tacosnape - I've played a list very similar to yours, and I do like it. Thought I'd mention some stuff from my experience.
First, try out Lake of the Dead. You'll probably need to up your Swamp count by 1 in order to use it. I'd probably run 2x. It's one more way to fuel out a quick Jitte, and later on it makes Shade and other pumpables so much bigger that much quicker. What to cut for that space though? I'd recommend some of your 2cc creatures. First, why 2x or Order of the Ebon Hand, Hand of Cruelty, and Stromgald Crusader? Just couldn't decide and weren't sure you wanted to see multiples? In my opinion Stromgald Crusader is the strongest of those. The evasion is helpful in a few situations, and he is a zombie. I'd probably cut the 2x Hand of Cruelty (Out of curiosity, what led you to run him over others? And how has it worked for ya?).
How has maindeck Leyline been working for you? Why did you take this over Planar Void? It's true you probably don't want to drop Planar Void first turn, but Leyline is basically horrible unless you have it in your opening hand, Planar atleast you can draw into the first few turns and it's still usable. Honestly, neither suits my taste. I'd run Yixlid Jailer. If you're maindecking hate, then Jailer is never dead. Add Leyline or Planar to your sideboard and graveyard decks will have a terrible matchup against this. Yixlid Jailer shuts down Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast near as well as Leyline of the Void. Tarmogoyf it has troubles with, but quite honestly, this many creatures and the fact that your creatures are pumpable late game - you shouldn't be having terrible troubles with Tarmogoyf.
Lastly, I've been playing with Swords of Fire and Ice. Currently I run 3x Jitte and 2x Swords of Fire and Ice. It's been quite nice. Every game I want to see a piece of big ass equipment. This ups the count by 1 and I rarely have to worry about Jitte's Legendary status. With Lake of the Dead and Dark Ritual you can near guarentee and equip by turn 3 or a piece of equipment. I've liked it so far.
Grrrr... I really wanted to reply to your deck and now i'm out the door for work a couple of minutes late. Damn you Tacosnape. And good luck!
This is the list I'd most likely run if I were using the weenie creatures (or something like it). The fact that 8 of your creatures can become huge and still manage in the early game is what makes the Stark builds roll so smoothly. Just one question: Why do you run a 2/2 split instead of 4 Stromgald Crusaders? I think they're better because they can "fly" (jump maybe?).
@Galroth: So you're basically suggesting something like this:
18 Swamp
2 Lake of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
Doesn't look that bad if you ask me.
My only concern with Lake of the Dead, is the vulernability it adds to your manabase. Other than that, it is an amazing card and really works well with your build Galroth. The explosive potential it adds could well be worth the risk, but it is a risk nonetheless.
Oh, and I think there are way too many zombies in the list. I don't think we need to make ourselves vulnerable to a Engineered plague naming zombies.
Because on occasion, I'd rather have Order of the Ebon Hand, because in certain circumstances, Ebon Hand can swing for one less mana than Crusader can merely from the threat of her getting first strike. Ebon Hand is also not a zombie, and I felt that 10 Zombies was sufficient to help out Sarcomancy. The two Hand of Cruelty are there because I really can't afford to pump multiple guys all that often, though I always like to have one pumper. Plus, the 2/2/2 split gives me a certain protection against things like Cabal Therapy and whatnot. I doubt the choice of the 6 Pro-White guys makes a huge difference as long as they're present, as I find pro-STP skyrockets my chance of stealing wins from control decks. If you're worried, cut one of them for 2 Crusaders.
Yeah, I agree, Lake is a horrible idea. One of the strongest things this deck has going for it is an immunity to Wasteland, and if I were going to run a nonbasic I'd sneak in a single Tomb of Urami first to help out my control match in a pinch.
The zombie count has to be moderately high to protect Sarcomancy. Besides, one Plague won't stop Carno or Sarco from bounding through with a Jitte. If you're worried, cut Crusader for more Ebon Hands / Hands of Cruelty.
Jak's absolutely right. It gives the opponent the choice and against a deck like Goblins or another aggro deck, one double discard can be enough to win them the game.
Through testing, the zombie count really only needs to be around 8 for Sarcomancy. You can even go as low as 7.
And what testing statistic do you propose to offer to back that statement up? Don't use statements like "Through testing" to make a numerical statement when testing isn't giving you any sort of numerical statistic.
The truth is, it completely depends on what deck you're up against as to how many Zombies you -need-. What we do know is that the more zombies you have, the less likely Sarcomancy is to hurt you and the more you get hurt by Plague, and that against control decks you need an awful lot or they get to use Sarcomancy as a kill condition against you.
I personally disagree with your testing results, speaking as someone who ran Suicide Black before Sarcomancy was printed and has run some form of it at all times since. I find 10 to be dangerously low. But truth be told, I don't really care all that much if Sarcomancy has a zombie or not. I run Carnophage and Sarcomancy because they're excellent 1-drops that allow the turn two Rit-Jitte-Equip niftyness and play well off Dark Ritual, and I run the two Stromgald Crusaders because they can fly in a pinch, and evasion wins games.
On top of all that, I find that Plague 1 tends to go on "Insect" or "Shade," more than it goes on Zombie.
My personal version of Suiblack runs at a higher mana curve, in order to make Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, etc. not such a beating. To compensate, it also runs a number of "free" spells.
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Black Knight
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Snuff Out
3 Contagion
2 Metagame slots.
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
20 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
SB:4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
Negator is a beating and a half, as usual. Specter I'm not quite satisfied with, but he does fly, and, if slipped under the counter/swords wall, is pretty much GG for Landstill. Shade is a fast clock and awesome topdeck.
The interesting thing is the choice of Black Knight. He's sort of a relic from the days when goblins walked the earth, but he has good synergy with Jitte. Plus, he dodges all of the one-toughness removal around. He might become a pump knight.
Contagion and Snuff Out are fantastic answers to Tarmogoyf.
The metagame slots are basically either more removal, Leylines, or Jitte+X, depending.
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