[DTB] Vial Goblins

[TeenieBopper]

Bidding.

Ask Mike.

Mostly Smother and Therapy, but yeah, bidding is like the nut high off the top.

Look, here's the deal with goblins- it's got rough match ups now. Those match-ups are Thresh and combo (with landstill coming back close to even with goblins having to adjust to deal with the other two). Combo is just shitty. Shitty shitty shitty. There's almost no way you're ever going to get an even to favorable match up against combo with goblins without making Thresh and Landstill auto losses. Since the things that are good against thresh are also good against control, my plan is to pretty much throw away the combo match-ups and depend on the rest of the metagame to deal with them.

White is good against Thresh(or rather, Tarmagoyf). That's about it. It doesn't help any other match up. Black does. Smother might as well be StP in this format. Therapy is awesome against control at forcing your bombs through (Ringleader, SGC, Bidding) while also giving you something against combo. Bidding is crazy. Simply put, black gives you answers to just about everything.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Mostly Smother and Therapy, but yeah, bidding is like the nut high off the top.

Look, here's the deal with goblins- it's got rough match ups now. Those match-ups are Thresh and combo (with landstill coming back close to even with goblins having to adjust to deal with the other two). Combo is just shitty. Shitty shitty shitty. There's almost no way you're ever going to get an even to favorable match up against combo with goblins without making Thresh and Landstill auto losses. Since the things that are good against thresh are also good against control, my plan is to pretty much throw away the combo match-ups and depend on the rest of the metagame to deal with them.

White is good against Thresh(or rather, Tarmagoyf). That's about it. It doesn't help any other match up. Black does. Smother might as well be StP in this format. Therapy is awesome against control at forcing your bombs through (Ringleader, SGC, Bidding) while also giving you something against combo. Bidding is crazy. Simply put, black gives you answers to just about everything.

Why not just run Perish over smother?

For one measly mana more it kills Goose and other nasty things that smother can't hit and can also take out multiple Goyfs that are preventing your horde from swinging in for the win.

[TeenieBopper]

Why not just run Perish over smother?

For one measly mana more it kills Goose and other nasty things that smother can't hit and can also take out multiple Goyfs that are preventing your horde from swinging in for the win.

I actually did think about running Perish in the board at the EPIC DLD. Smother is just more versatile. It kills everything in the formal, not just every green thing.

[dlevsApiJ]

Isn't Terminate better then Smother?

[redmage]

Isn't Terminate better then Smother?

It all depends.

If it's turn 2 and I'm staring at a Badlands & R.Port... I'd, likely, rather have the Smother.

[dlevsApiJ]

Today, i was thinking:

Why play Black over White?

Against Goyf: Black has Smother/Terminate/Snuff out, but White has the much better STP
Against combo: Black had Therapy(/Duress/Thoughtseize), but Orim's Chant in white is also i very good card against combo, let them fizzle after playing a Burning Wish or something like that is really good, you dont only remove their kill, like whit discard, also all of their mana is gone, and they even get mana burn!!

+ when you splash White over Black, and you also play green, Ray of Revelation is much better then Tranquil Domain (i play 2 of them)


Greetz


EDIT: when you also need Leyline of the Void/Planar Void in your meta, you better play the Black splash, but in my meta, with not much Grave Combo (like Ichorid and Breakfast) i dont need them, and splashing white over black only gives better cards.

[Cait_Sith]

Therapy makes it easy for you to put dudes into your graveyard, making it better vs Ichorid. Therapy also lets you hit their hand multiple times and is proactive, so it dodges things like Abeyance, Orim's Chant, and Xantid Swarm.

[Tacosnape]

Duress/Therapy/Seize don't just hit combo decks, you know. It's also an answer to Engineered Plague or any other problematic card you run across. White has to assign different cards to all of these duties. Black's answers are far more all-purpose.

EDIT: How is Thorn of Amethyst, for all you people running it? I haven't tested it and it looks interesting if not overwhelmingly convincing.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah that's true, better playing Black then, with Cabal Therapys main over the Amathysts (i also havent tested them, so is someone had tested them, please tell if they are good enough)
Isnt 1 Goblin Goon / 1 Ib in the SB good against Goyf?

Mvg

[Sims]

Well in theory Thorn is good. It's a disruptive element that doesn't really disrupt much of your deck and sits in the relatively empty 2 mana slot that is even colorless so you don't have to worry bout what color mana you've got in the early turns.

Honestly, however, I haven't tested it practically.

[Marco]

Check out http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7441 for a possible new Goblin deck.

[Drossie]

I've tested Thorn of Amethyst yesterday and I think I will play him.
I've played 10 games against affinity and AggroLoam and I went 7-3.

A combination of Thorn, Wasteland en Port really slows your opponent down whil you can play your goblins with Aether Vial.

The only question now is to play the Thorn MD or in SB.
I can play 3 in SB instead of the Pyrokinesis. Then I can play 4 more Goblins.

But I think I will play him MD. I think he is good against a lot of decks! Only in the mirrormatch he is very bad, but there aren't that much goblinplayers left in my meta.

This is the decklist I will play I think.

4x Æther Vial
4x Thorn of Amethyst

3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg Fanatic
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin Street Hooligan

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

SIDEBOARD
4x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Goblin King
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pyrokinesis

I think I will cut the SB Pyrokinesis, but don't know what to play instead. Chalice? Tranquil Domain?

[galeng]

Hi. Im a new legacy player and I'm definitely most instested in goblins in this format since goblins have been my favourite creature type since Onslought (and even more now in Lorwyn). I also like the fact that a tribal creature based deck can still be competitive in legacy: the format of combo and thresh.

My goblins build right now is as follows:

Main Deck:
14 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Goblin King
3 Flaring Pain
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Now I know the first thing youre thinking of is WTF no splash?! but I've done a lot of testing and have many reasons to show where it's not needed...

Goblin King vs. Engineered Plague
Common defense is a disenchant or duress. King does the job since it negates the plague's ability and it also has some other advantages: Tutorable with matron or drawable with ringleader, playable with lackey or vial (can't be countered), saves your goblins from the wipe before the plague is dropped (rather than waiting, then disenchanting), and lastly it helps with the affinity of the deck (and it attacks!).

Flaring Pain vs. Worship/CoP:Red
Play it when you can attack for lethal. Flashback if its countered.

Goblin Tinkerer vs. Pithing Needle/Jitte
Tutorable to get annoying artifacts out of the way.

Ive tried spashing and black tends to be the best due to cabal therapy efficiency, but it still isn't worth the cut on goblin count (assuming you main deck therapy) and a mana base that gets owned by Stifle, Pithing Needle and Wasteland. Plus the life loss on fetches can decide the game.

So in conclusion, how do you think I could improve the build? I don't know much about the metagame and I don't know everything that's out there so give me some input. Give me some suggestions and things the deck is weak against. The things im not so sure on is the maindeck king and sharpshooter and the sideboard pillar vs chalice. Any feedback is appreciated.

[Blacktail]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

[galeng]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

Pithing Needle is a really solid sb card I agree, but is it worth getting locked by prevent damage. I understand the needle can take out CoP, but Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

[GreenOne]

Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

In my Monored version (which i'm testing at the moment) I play Blood Moon(are they really going to draw the lonely basic plains they need to Worship? Will the play a creature before BloodMoon hits? Lots of ifs on their side) and Anarchy.

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: CoP, Sphere of Law, Worship, Silver Knights, soltary priest, Solitary Confinament, Jotun Grunts, Serra Avenger, Mother of Runes, Meddling Mage, Geddok teeg, Humility, Mystic Enforcer, en-kor critters, exhalted angel, decree of justice tokens, Moat...
It just shines vs Enchantress, Angel Stompy, Rift and D&T.

Here's my list atm:
// Lands
14 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [U] Goblin King
SB: 2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon (My choice vs plague, moat and pyroclasm)

I'd like to add some price of progress as a surprise effect - alternative win, but can't find room.

Advantages of the monored version:
- You start from 20 life instead of 18.
- You can't color-screw. This happens rarely with the maindeck, but it happens post-side
- Wasteland - You're less vulnerable
- Stifle - Being timewalked vs tempo decks is not good I hear
- Blood Moon - A beating in a LOT of matchups (Thresh, Landstill, 43Lands, Loam, Breakfast), it has nice synergy with Goblin King.

Disadvantages:
- Limited card choices, both in goblin and non-goblin cards.


@Thorn of Amethyst:
That card was surprisingly good in many matchups.
- It slows down control decks and you can use your mana disruption in a more efficient way.
- It hoses storm combo MD if you're on the play.
- It's good vs Enchantress.
- Nice vs D&T
- It was even quite good vs Loam decks (laying Geddon with 5 lands in play and loam that costs 3 can be difficult)

Matchups where it sucks:
- Ichorid
- Breakfast
- Mirror

Unfortunately couldn't test vs Thresh..
G2 Thorn is a little less one-sided. That can be an issue, sometimes.

[Benie Bederios]

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: ..., Geddok teeg, ...

No it don't

On a serious note, I played against the deck and the deck looks pretty promissing.

Cutting down to three Mogg's is curious though. It's a nice creature against Ichorid and Breakfast. Both are probably though games G1, so having a 1CC speedbump for them is nice.

BB

[Maveric78f]

To give the double Splash a try :

// Lands (23)
4 [7E] Mountain (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Plateau
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (30)
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells (6)
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Crib Swap

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Crib Swap
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [B] Disenchant
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

I find white better against combo and to provide removal (Crib Swap is nice, disenchant too) but the recursion guy (Wort) is too precious to be ignored. Orim's chant is better than any discard spell.

In a perfect world I would have maindecked Thorn and SBed Chalice at its place, but we all know that gob's slots are very tight, and I don't want to design my all SB to it. A possibility would be -1sharpy, -1pilly, -1incinerator and -1 fanatic. But I'm not sure yet.

[GreenOne]

No it don't

Sigh.. my bad

Cutting down to three Mogg's is curious though. It's a nice creature against Ichorid and Breakfast. Both are probably though games G1, so having a 1CC speedbump for them is nice.

I want the 4th mogg too, but the only debatable slot is Thorn's. I was testing it, so i wanted to have access to the 4x.
However, Breakfast is something like 50/50 G1. And heavily favorable G2 unless they get a Vial AND an Abeyance.
In games I tested I went 2/1, 2/0, 2/0. However, he drew no Vial in ALL games.

[Eldariel]

Mogg Fanatic is better than Gempalm Incinerator in this metagame. You only really want Gempalms in the mirror and even there, Fanatic stops Lackey where Gempalm doesn't. It's quite the simple switch, Incins don't even do much anymore.