Why isn't Snuff Out better than Smother, by this logic?Originally Posted by Tacosnape
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Well...it is, in Suiblack. I mean, being able to cast a druess on the same turn you snuff the Tarmogoyf is def. worth the 4th life. Sui will gladly ignore it's own life total to remove the most frustrating blocker since Light Beer.
Also, in the build with Mox, COnfidant helps you fuel that explosive and unfair starts, because Ritual-> duress+Bob is even better than Ritual->Duress+Shade, etc.
I agree 100%. Snuff Out > Smother all the way. It sucks to top deck it with Bob, but that doesn't happen enough to me to bother me. Plus if it does, I shrug and hurt myself for 8 dmg. I guess it goes back to the point of what creature would beat him out for the slot. I myself can't think of any. Everyone is free to disagree, but I am sticking with Bob. I have heard both sides of the argument, and the main points for or against Bob have already been posted. I guess you just have to decide for yourself.
Edit: On another note... Stormgald crusader> Rotting Giant. *huggles Stormgald*
It might be. It's very close. In any case, Snuff and Smother are worlds better than any other single-target removal options.
There's always a little more to look out than just the tempo, though. Snuff Out doesn't kill some things in the format. Such as anything that's black, any artifact creature, or anything at all if Gaddock Teeg is on the board. And the 4 life -can- be steep when you tack on all the other life penalties Sui Black likes to run.
Smother, however, has very very little that it can't kill and costs you no life. However, having to spend the mana can indeed be a pain sometimes. And Smother also gets Spell Snared where Snuff Out doesn't.
In short, I think I'd pick Smother in a Confidant build, and not just because of the life differential, but because Confidant builds don't always try to kill as fast as humanly possible and can afford the tempo loss. I'd pick Snuff Out in a regular build. ...That is, if I even ran either one.
Snuff does actually kill artifact creatures (but the point is clear).
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Huh, I don't think so. Confidant Builds still wants to swing hard, and still use the pump and jump nonsense. Maybe its not a Bob out, but a Shade turn 2. Mr. Shade still wants to smack a bitch regardless if there is Bob in a deck. Hell, if you snuff out Mr. Goyf or what have you, Confidant is still beating 2 in the face. First turn Confidant happens quite a bit with mox, and Thresh is not going to have anything more than a gofy out by turn 2. You Snuff the bitch and then swing for 2. Yeah there is the little mongoose dude but whatever, Bob can lay a little beats from time to time. So if anything, the life loss is the issue, because Bob the builder still likes tempo either way. Even with the life loss with Bob, I say tempo for the peoples.
Its Halloween so fuck that civil shit for the nightGive me some candor!
As appetizing as Stromgald Crusader looks, I don't know what I could remove for it. I need to keep the discard suite, and I really think that Hyppie, Gator, Shade and Bob are all better
...Rtfc, Taco. Rtfc.
Hyppie's probably the best choice here, because after a certain point his discard ability becomes less important than the fact that he flies. Stromgald Crusader covers this.
Negator could be justified given that Hyppie + Crusader = lots of evasion, and Confidant's generally fairly average, so he could go too. Shade stays.
Alternately, I've never felt 16 threats to be sufficient in Suicide Black. Red Death can get away with it due to burn reach, and Deadguy can get away with even less due to playing a fair long game, but Suicide Black is lost without threats. So you might want to consider cutting a non-threat for him.
...Is your build running Wasteland? I can't recall. Stromgald Crusader is less of a great idea in a Wasteland build due to the black mana intensity.
My current build is:
4 Negator
4 Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Umezawa's jitte
4 Snuff Out
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
16 Swamp
So that leaves one card. Assuming I shave two of the discard spells (Probably Thoughtsieze before Duress, because I'm spilling more than enough life already.), that means I can go up to 3 crusaders and thus 19 creatures. At the same time, I wonder if that's enough discard.
If Crusader proves good, what creature would I cut to go up to 4? I mean, I never want to draw multiples, do I?
Also, I propose the nickname Superzombie for Crusader. Because you will believe a Zombie can fly.
I think the very first thing I'd do with your list is add the first Crusader, then cut a Swamp for the second one.
I'd cut a Snuff Out for Crusader #3, and a second swamp for Crusader #4.
That leaves me with 22 mana sources, only 18 of which stick around. I dunno if that's enough for the 3-mana spells I want to resolve.
It might be, based on how hard your manabase is to disrupt and the fact that you can always imprint your 3-drops on your Chrome Moxes to solve your mana curve. Plus, you run Dark Confidant, who's a god at getting you Land #3.
Still, if you're worried, cut 1 Swamp and go to 2 Crusaders and try the deck out awhile and see if your manabase is a problem at 23/19 rather than 22/18.
Crusader works fine even with decks with wasteland. It just takes a measly one mana to make him jump. Swinging 2 evasive at the very worst isn't too bad and if you have Bob than that will happen a lot less.
Well are we all in agreement over Snuff Out versus Smother now or are there some points left be made? To me, any deck with 6 or more pump/jump creatures will want to have Snuff Out. I am asking for further debate, because I really lack strict confidence in which is better in builds with Bob. This deck needs to be optimized regardless of which direction you chose and I think which removal you go for is important.
Also, is Hyppie obsolete now? The only place I see him is in builds that run 4 mox and ritual. With the addition of thoughtseize, I see lists that leave out hyppie and just run 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize to cover. Still with some chromage, turn 2 Hyppie is probably one of your strongest plays.
I like how your build is developing so far Ozzy. I too, am going with 4 Chrome Moxes. Even if it can create problems, I think ensuring early draws of mox outweigh every other issue.
Ozzy's list does run Hippie. Unless judges in his area are sloppy enough to let him play eight Shades.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Yeah. The point of running neither one, which is what I pick.
Nobody has yet to offer any sort of valid reason on why a removal spell beyond Umezawa's Jitte and Plague/Dystopia in the sideboard is necessary, especially with Thoughtseize now adding a dimension of creature management that was previously lacking.
Say you are in a situation like mine where you cannot afford the Thoughtseize and Jittes, yet you still want to play a version of this deck that is as competetive as you can make it with what resources are available to you. I think seize remains Hymn and the Jitte slots become either Snuff Out or Smother.
Well alright, if we're talking hypothetical budgets, then yes, you have to run some form of a removal spell. And if you don't have Thoughtseizes, your choice immediately becomes Snuff Out because now you've got the life to spend.
I personally wouldn't -play- Suicide Black without Jitte, but if you are, Snuff Out's a solid pick.
Yeah, Jittes are definitely the next card I pick up for this thing. I like the Mox plan too, but I just hate imprinting cards to them haha. I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if my first turn play was Bob though.
The main reason I would offer is, we don't play gofy. Yeah match two might go better with some help from Dystopia, but game one I want Gofy answers. He is superior to all of your threats and all you have to combat him creature wise is N. Shade. Basically, Gofy can stall you a turn or two too many while your opponent stabilizes and plays into his superior mid to late game. Plus it clears blockers for your threats and Gator likes not having to swing into too many creatures. Snuff Out and Shade is so much pain in your opponents face its not funny.
There's a card that kills Goyf utterly, I hear. It's called Tombstalker; and if you don't mind Bob hitting you for 8 with Snuff Out, I'd play the better card here.
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