[ATW] Landstill

[Waikiki]

So konsultant when are you going to bring your new list to a big tourney? Im dieing to see the list.

[hi-val]

I've been seeing some really interesting Landstill-ish decks coming out of Europe that I think are worth sharing.

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=11028

This one uses Gelectrode!!! and a bunch of burn and has no global sweepers. Interesting.

There's also the one I wrote about a long time ago here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/13901.html

I find myself returning to it a bit. TFK, Furnaces main, etc. It had Academy Ruins seven months ago, which is neat.


I'm wondering whether global sweepers are still important. I'm finding that more and more, pinpoint stuff does the job as well or better. Explosives really comes to mind here. I think my article next week will talk about the wacky blue control deck I've been tinkering with. It's spiritually related to Landstill but has basically nothing that Landstill has in it. Interesting. Someone on the last page questioned Standstill's worth these days, and I find myself asking similar questions. I think it's worth evaluating the card again.

[Tacosnape]

The concept of ditching Standstill is retarded. Standstill is and has always been the strongest card-advantage generating spell in the format. The concept of going away from a powerful card for a weaker one just because a few decks are prepared for it is absurd.

If you're worried about Aether Vial, Force it, Explosives it, or Deed it, then drop your Standstill. The synergy between an EOT Deed Sweep and Standstill is ludicrous, and on the play, Force of Will virtually guarantees you Standstill strength.

The only two matches where Standstill is flat out bad are Ichorid and Lands.

You'll board out the Standstills against Ichorid for your graveyard hate and your Plagues.

Lands, it wouldn't matter for a second. You lose to this deck. You'll still lose without Standstill.

Against the rest of the universe, Standstill is either good or insane.

[Van Phanel]

The concept of ditching Standstill is retarded. Standstill is and has always been the strongest card-advantage generating spell in the format. The concept of going away from a powerful card for a weaker one just because a few decks are prepared for it is absurd.

If you're worried about Aether Vial, Force it, Explosives it, or Deed it, then drop your Standstill. The synergy between an EOT Deed Sweep and Standstill is ludicrous, and on the play, Force of Will virtually guarantees you Standstill strength.

The only two matches where Standstill is flat out bad are Ichorid and Lands.

You'll board out the Standstills against Ichorid for your graveyard hate and your Plagues.

Lands, it wouldn't matter for a second. You lose to this deck. You'll still lose without Standstill.

Against the rest of the universe, Standstill is either good or insane.

Quoted for so much truth.

Standstill is what makes Landstill work. The Goblin-matchup would be like 20-80 if we had no standstill to match their Ringleaders, however with Standstill it is about even depending on the list. Similar things are true for most other matchups. Standstill draws that third land, Standstill draws the additional counter you need against Combo, Standstill draws the solution (or at the very worst makes it come closer). This is enough to warrant some setup. Period.

[hi-val]

The concept of ditching Standstill is retarded.

It's kind of hard to have a mature discussion when confronted with this kind of attitude.

When I think about the card, I see it as potentially powerful but also very limiting. There's a desire to turn the deck into almost a theme deck revolving around Standstill. Not sure if this is the course to go; there might be strong proactive threats that would mean Standstill isn't as good.

Another thought I had from my Vintage experience is that sometimes, you just don't care about the Standstill. They play it, you break it, but you end up resolving a much more powerful card than the ones that they draw. To put it another way, I'd rather be casting Ringleader into Standstill than drawing cards from it. It makes me wonder if the power level of the format is such that sheer card drawing, especially if it cuts you off from other drawing (like Brainstorm in the time being) is worth it. Can Threshold just toss Ponder into your Standstill, pull up a Spell Snare and resolve their Nimble Mongoose anyway? Again, I don't have the answers to this, I'm just raising the question.

I'm still in the reseach stages. It seems to me that against combo, you are hopefully not wanting to cast Standstill on turn 2, because you have Counterspell in hand. I can see playing it because it might draw you into FOW. However, with a counter in hand, I'd rather hold it and a fetchland up and Brainstorm or drop another land next turn and TFK. Tapping out during the mainphase when playing decks with straight counters in them had better be really worthwhile.

And I do love my Standstills. I've been playing them for four years.

[Berzerked]

There are too many situations where Standstill is insane.
This includes having one in your opening hand on the play along with StP/EE, having one in your opening hand on the play and your opponent says land-go, having one when your factory can trump their creature, after a sweeper, after creating 4/4 flyers when you know your opponents only answer is StP, and the list goes on and on. Basically, I can't see dropping it at all. Factories don't provide as much pressure or defense without it.

Also, it depends on what kind of combo you are facing, and what they did on their first turn.

[hi-val]

I've also encountered situations where the opponent has Warchief and you draw a Standstill, which does absolutely nothing there. There's the Lackey/Mongoose opening that makes Standstill hurt as well. It was ultimately dropped in UW Fish in Vintage (yes, a different beast) because it ended up being only good when you already had a strong hand or board position. At times when you were even the slightest bit behind, it was a bad card to see. Who knows...

If factories are less strong without Standstill, then let's drop Factories too!

Sacred cows make for delcious hamburgers.

[Berzerked]

True, a top-decked Standstill when they have board superiority kind of sucks, but it just takes one Wrath/Deed to change it from dead weight to an insane advantage. What would you propose replacing it with that would help in that situation anyway?

[Bryant Cook]

This conversation is ridiculous why change a fined tune machine for the worse? We should add smokestack and Hatching plans! You only have to wait one turn and you don't need spells and the board position doesn't matter.



Sarcasm tag- Ignore everything after the first line sentence.

[hi-val]

The "why change it" has never yielded new decks, innovative strategies or helped decks catch up to speed. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to question why we play certain cards, especially when we've been playing them for years. While the scale is different, if we were opposed to breaking up finely tuned machines, we'd have Portent and Werebears instead of Ponders and Tarmogoyfs in our Threshold decks. We wouldn't have Wastelands in them either. WGB Board Control wouldn't have Sakura-Tribe Elders. There wouldn't be Infernal Tutors in IGG combo. High Tide wouldn't flirt with 3 FOW.

I'm finding it surprising that people have such resistance to even entertaining the idea of a change in a deck.

I really, really suggest you guys go to the library and get the book “A Whack on the Side of the Head”, by Roger van Oech. You'll find that some of the most fruitful and productive methods of being creative include questioning norms and standards. Saying "no" to everything new or different isn't the way to improve anything.

Berzerked, that's the pickle. I'm not quite sure what to replace it with; it might not even be a direct replacement. Something like an extra mana source and 3 FOF would be interesting; maybe Ponders, maybe TFKs, maybe even stranger things like Ancestral Vision!

[Nightmare]

maybe even stranger things like Ancestral Vision!

I've tested this. It's better than you'd think. At the very least, you no longer have to be constrained by not playing spells, and your wins can come much quicker.

[Tacosnape]

The "why change it" has never yielded new decks, innovative strategies or helped decks catch up to speed. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to question why we play certain cards, especially when we've been playing them for years. While the scale is different, if we were opposed to breaking up finely tuned machines, we'd have Portent and Werebears instead of Ponders and Tarmogoyfs in our Threshold decks. We wouldn't have Wastelands in them either. WGB Board Control wouldn't have Sakura-Tribe Elders. There wouldn't be Infernal Tutors in IGG combo. High Tide wouldn't flirt with 3 FOW.

I'm finding it surprising that people have such resistance to even entertaining the idea of a change in a deck.

I really, really suggest you guys go to the library and get the book “A Whack on the Side of the Head”, by Roger van Oech. You'll find that some of the most fruitful and productive methods of being creative include questioning norms and standards. Saying "no" to everything new or different isn't the way to improve anything.

For the love of God, spare us your philosophical diatribe. You know why people run cards like Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, and Duress? Because they're good. Speaking as one of the chief innovators of 4C Landstill and the one who spent months fighting the perception that Wasteland was absolutely necessary to the function of the deck, I'm quite aware of the stubbornness against change.

However, there's a large difference between innovative improvement and, for lack of better terms, a bad idea.

Changes usually get made where the improvement is necessary. Tarmogoyf gets played over Werebear because Tarmogoyf is better than Werebear. Ancestral Vision doesn't get played over Standstill because it isn't. (I do agree with Nightmare in that Vision -is- better than people think, however.)

If you cut Standstill, you also cut Factory, and then you're not Landstill anymore, you're U/W or U/W/B Control, killing with Decrees and Echoes and probably getting your cards with Ancestral Vision or Fact or Fiction or whatnot. While this might be a viable strategy, it's not the same deck, and I've yet to see any sort of possible reason why it might be better to do so than to just run Landstill.

[hi-val]

For the love of God, spare me your hyperbole. These are magic cards, not missles, Mr. President.

The background I am approaching this with is the following: I've been playing Standstill since it was printed and I've seen most of the decks that ran it drop the card in favor of better ones. Tog dropped it in T2, both UW and UR Fish dropped it, Threshold dropped it, etc. Those decks didn't run it any more for a reason. Maybe that reason is applicable here.

And Standstill is a good card, but it's not even in the same sport, much less the same ballpark, as FOW and STP.

And finally, I don't have the answer. I'm saying "are there better cards than Standstill?" and it seems that your response is "that's a stupid question" without even considering the question itself. I've got to go clean the bathrooms so I'll do some meditations on alternative cards for that draw spot.

[URABAHN]

When I think about the card, I see it as potentially powerful but also very limiting. There's a desire to turn the deck into almost a theme deck revolving around Standstill. Not sure if this is the course to go; there might be strong proactive threats that would mean Standstill isn't as good.

I don't see the problem with building a deck around something as powerful as Standstill. Keep the board clean, run win conditions that operate under Standstill, and play Standstill. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Another thought I had from my Vintage experience is that sometimes, you just don't care about the Standstill. They play it, you break it, but you end up resolving a much more powerful card than the ones that they draw. To put it another way, I'd rather be casting Ringleader into Standstill than drawing cards from it. It makes me wonder if the power level of the format is such that sheer card drawing, especially if it cuts you off from other drawing (like Brainstorm in the time being) is worth it.

There are times when you'll hamstring yourself by playing Standstill. You'll miss land drops, discard useful cards, or find yourself unable to activate Nantuko Monastery. Standstill is such a powerful card in Legacy and I'm willing to take the above risks because the rewards are so great.

Can Threshold just toss Ponder into your Standstill, pull up a Spell Snare and resolve their Nimble Mongoose anyway? Again, I don't have the answers to this, I'm just raising the question.

In the above scenario, did you leave out the part where the Landstill player plays Counterspell targeting Nimble Mongoose? Spell Snare would need a valid target and I guess it would Counterspell in that scenario. Countering a Nimble Mongoose in any situation sounds like desperation on the part of the Landstill player. Against Gro, if a Standstill trigger just resolved in favor of the Landstill player, I doubt that player would be reduced to such desperate measures at that time. Still, if we are talking about a worst-case scenario and the Landstill player's options are reduced to Countering Nimble Mongoose and Standstill found you 3 fetchlands instead of Deed, Monastery, Engineered Explosives, Wrath, Damnation, [insert answer here]...I guess you lose. Shuffle up and go to the next game.

I'm still in the reseach stages. It seems to me that against combo, you are hopefully not wanting to cast Standstill on turn 2, because you have Counterspell in hand. I can see playing it because it might draw you into FOW. However, with a counter in hand, I'd rather hold it and a fetchland up and Brainstorm or drop another land next turn and TFK. Tapping out during the mainphase when playing decks with straight counters in them had better be really worthwhile.

Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as you think. You can't sit on your lone Counterspell, cross your fingers, and hope to win. Play the Standstill because you want to dig deep against combo and find your FoWs, Counterspells and manlands as fast as you can. If TES answers with Land, THE BUSTED SHIT aka TENDRILS FOR 38 on their turn and you didn't draw a Force of Will or two to stop them...I guess you lose. Shuffle up and go to the next game.

The "why change it" has never yielded new decks, innovative strategies or helped decks catch up to speed. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to question why we play certain cards, especially when we've been playing them for years. While the scale is different, if we were opposed to breaking up finely tuned machines, we'd have Portent and Werebears instead of Ponders and Tarmogoyfs in our Threshold decks. We wouldn't have Wastelands in them either. WGB Board Control wouldn't have Sakura-Tribe Elders. There wouldn't be Infernal Tutors in IGG combo. High Tide wouldn't flirt with 3 FOW.

I'm finding it surprising that people have such resistance to even entertaining the idea of a change in a deck.

I really, really suggest you guys go to the library and get the book “A Whack on the Side of the Head”, by Roger van Oech. You'll find that some of the most fruitful and productive methods of being creative include questioning norms and standards. Saying "no" to everything new or different isn't the way to improve anything.

Doug, there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but there comes a time when someone can suggest something so incredibly ridiculous that it's well, ridiculous.

Standstill is the most powerful draw spell in Legacy and it absolutely belongs in Landstill.

[hi-val]

While I am amused by the liberties you took with my name, my last name is spelled Linn and I've been correcting people on that all my life : \ You missed Dougstar, Dooj and Douglas Dougston III though.

I think the divergence is that I'm thinking of Standstill as being a draw spell for a deck and the rest of the world thinks of it as an engine to build around. Both are probably valid points of view and help explain why I am questioning the card's inclusion in the deck while other people are questioning my question.

For the record, my bathroom cleaning meditation yielded Ponder at the forefront. Briefly, it finds you the same card you need that Standstill might, it's cheaper, it fixes land drops, etc. Not making a case for it as much as explaining my thought process.

Perhaps a new thread (and a search of the archives first) is in order for my ideas. After all, this is a thread about Landstill, not about gutting the deck!

I've been really pumped about Phyrexian Furnace in general as of late; what about its' inclusion, maybe as a 2-of, in Landstill? Sure, it cycles, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a deck in Legacy that didn't rely on its graveyard at least a little. It's a hell of a beating on Threshold if it comes down in the first three turns, and it stops Breakfast something fierce.

Also, has Academy Ruins become basically standard for lists running Crucibles? I wonder if Disk is too slow (it probably is) but things like Engineered Explosives are gravy to recur.

[Ophidian]

I've been really pumped about Phyrexian Furnace in general as of late; what about its' inclusion, maybe as a 2-of, in Landstill? Sure, it cycles, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a deck in Legacy that didn't rely on its graveyard at least a little. It's a hell of a beating on Threshold if it comes down in the first three turns, and it stops Breakfast something fierce.

As someone who has been on the P. Furnace bandwagon, since... well, 6/97 (when WL was released) I think it's great in the deck as long as you're running Cunning Wish. It turns a potential dead'ish draw into, "At the end of your turn, Sac Furnace and remove my FOF, Cunning Wish, FOF."

Not that paying 9 mana for a card off the top via the Furnace and a couple cards from FOF is incredibly hot, but it does add some versatility to the card instead of just making it a faux sideboard game 1.

[Nydaeli]

I think the divergence is that I'm thinking of Standstill as being a draw spell for a deck and the rest of the world thinks of it as an engine to build around.

I agree with your view of Standstill. I think the reason it's an autoinclude is that it's simply better than anything else that could possibly go in its place. What else would you consider? Accumulated Knowledge? LFTL? (More) Fact or Fiction? Skeletal Scrying? (Ancestral Vision?) Maybe I'm wrong, but I think these are all slower and generally less effective than Standstill.

[Berzerked]

You run Standstill with Factories to compliment it, just like you run Counterbalance with Tops to compliment it. It's not necessarily an engine to build around - all you do is take blue-based control, replace the creatures with Factories, and some draw with Standstill. Then throw in some synergistic stuff.
Just like you take Thresh, replace some cantrips with Tops, and throw Counterbalance over Counterspell.

[jamest]

I've been trying out Think Twice in place of Standstill.

Please provide more than just a one line statement and have discussion to back up such a change - Jander

EDIT: Here's what I wrote in the Infoninjas Forum:

Think Twice - Seems janky but it provides a lot of things I'm looking in a draw spell i.e. it's blue, doesn't cause life loss, castable on turn 2 (partly), instant, etc. It's power level is certainly not so hot, but Landstill can afford to run mana intensive cards.

I'm back to playing TT over FOF. FOF has more draw power but I love the in-game playability of TT. First, TT cycles early so it's relevent early and curves better. For example, TT could help me hit a land drop when FOF would just be sitting in my hand. Second, the flashback aspect means that TT is harder to counter. Against Thresh, I normally wait for 5 mana to cast FOF to dodge Daze, but with TT, I tap out without worry.

Another thing, I run Cunning Wish and with TT, I do not need to put a draw spell in the wishboard, because TT removes itself from the game. Anyways, I'm not saying TT is better than Standstill, but it's worth testing.

[konsultant]

Here's the list I have been testing with recently. I had planned on playing it this coming weekend but since I have not lost a round in the last three tournaments I have entered I suppose I should just run my UWB build.

Hybrid - Konsultant

White
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon

Black
2 Chainer's Edict
1 Lilliana Vess

Gold
4 Pernious Deed

Blue
3 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

Land
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Watseland

SB
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Spellsnare
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosive's

First off let me start with I don't believe Landstill should have a match that is an auto-loss. With that in mind I have created this list.

I believe that Monastary is for the most part a win more card and is not needed to win in Landstill.

Wasteland is a must play card if you ever plan on beating 43 land or a Landstill mirror.

The Scrubland and Savanah are in there for multiple reasons including hate against choke or boil. They also allow Eternal Dragon to fetch for any color.

Lilliana is probably not needed but Plainswalkers in general have increadable synergy with the way Landstill is played. The slot may just be turned into a third Fact or Fiction.

The overall idea behind this build was to incorparate the power of Deed without losing any of the strength of standard UW Landstill. The deck has great match's against pretty much everything. The deck's Mana Base is not as stable as my UW build but I usually have whatever color Mana i'm looking for. The deck has all of the powerful win conditions of UW. The only other thing the deck dosn't have is Wrath of God.

Is it worth it to trade some Mana stability [2 basic lands] and the staple Wrath's for the power of Pernicious Deed? This build beats 43 land after board without much trouble. The deck also has more than a fighting chance against UW Lanstill. Perhap's I have overlooked some deck but everything I have built to test against it can consistently beat. The gauntlet I test against is Goblins, Cephalid Breakfast, 43 Land, UG Threshold-the one that won worlds, Burn, RGB Survival, Alluren, TES, Solidarity, UWB Fish, Ichorid, Black Suicide and Red Death.

To those who are posting about cutting Standstill from Landstill please read the first page of this thread. Standstill is concidered a staple in any deck that would be referred to as a "Landstill" variation. As my personal opinion on the matter it is absolutly retarded to remove Standstill's from any "Landstill" deck. The deck in it's creation is revolved around the power of Standstill. Landstill is not an aggro-control deck. The deck MUST have card advantage in order to win. Ponder may find you a land but will not fill up your hand or get you multiple removal spells.