So I have my list all set for TMLO III. I have decided to go with a 3/3/2 split of Tarfire, Seal of Fire and Spellbomb, this give Goyf a chance to really shine. I have included a card that no one has even mentioned yet, I am not going to say what it is though, I will let everyone know, after the event how it did. In the board I have gone with 2x Krosan Grip 2x Seal of Prime. This allows me to have an early 2 drop Art./Enchant. removal spell and an uncounterable one. Hope to see everyone there this weekend, I am really excited to go, this will be my first MLO.
Yeah 300 posts!
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
Originally Posted by pingveno
Someone mentioned lotus petal, which is pretty bad in here, but chrome mox is good enough to be considered. The card loss is significant, but consider a turn 1 dryad or goyf? For the people doing the black splash, a turn 1 confidant is very brutal and recovers the card loss on the following turn. Admittedly it messes with the curve some, but the efficiency of it combined with the brute speed should at least be considered in a deck that relies on brute speed and efficiency. The deck would need to be modified a little, 2 lands (mountains) and 2 cards cut for chromes perhaps. It does open up the chance to run it with art land, pyrite spellbomb, and shrap blast. I'm getting pretty "fringe" here, but chrome mox has possibilities and nobody in this forum has mentioned it, so I'm just sayin'.
I don't really understand how the non black splashes deal with combo consistently. Is the clock fast enough? Is Pillar really enough out of the board (and sometimes REB)? What about graveyard hate? Or is it just a bad matchup and you pray for the best and move on?
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Has Sensai's Divining Top been considered in this deck? It helps Goyf is killed, and seems to be a card that would really help in topdeck mode, and be fairly useful all of the time.
Not really. The card loss IS significant in a deck that has no draw whatsoever. I tested it before, and it helps power out Turn 1 Dryads/Goyfs/Firewalkers (back when I ran them... thinking of running them again as well), but either those Turn 1 plays don't stick or because of the card you pitched to Chrome Mox, you'd run out of threats/burn to apply pressure, nullifying the early one you brought down.
The only thing the deck has out of the SB for combo would be 4 Pillars and 4 Crypts really. If we're talking about clock, it's not blisteringly fast as most combo. However, when playing this deck, I often encounter combo players who get rattled after they see their life plunge to dangerously low levels by Turn 3. Basically, the deck just applies as much pressure as it could and prays that either the combo player is a scrub, or the combo player is forced to go off with an iffy hand and fizzle - or both.
I also tested that out before, but with the overload of threats/burn in the deck, I rarely get to use the Top ability. And with the low amount of land, surprisingly I fidn it hard to keep one mana open for it.
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About the Dark Confidants... he'll be swinging most of the time. Drawing a card off them, then trading in combat is vey acceptable. So is burning away a ~3/3 away before swinging; occasionally so is trading Bob + 1 Burn for an opposing fattie (still achieving card parity or better).
Sitting back and waiting for a lethal amount of Burn to accumulate is an option, but often not the correct one.
'He's bad because he's too good, making me afraid to lose him' is not a very strong argument.
Chrome Mox is horrible considering our curve; if anything Lotus Petal is all the acceleration the deck needs. The curve is too low to actually make good use of the additional permanent mana source, at least not enough to forgo a threat/burn spell.
***
I also believe the deck lacks the sheer power to dilute its game plan.
Re opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it. Second best is running Jittes on our own; while our mana base makes it a fairly bad card at least it's not totally dead if our opponent doesn't have one.
Re opposing Countertop: Admittedly, it's a wrecking ball. But I'm opposed to board possibly irrelevant cards against decks with a stronger lategame, causing us to lose games we otherwise had a very good job of winning for the off chance to turn the tides against their god draw (we also need to draw these when they would be relevant, with little/no library manipulation).
Re SDT: The hallmarks of the deck are redundancy and efficiency, and the deck tries to use up all its mana. Just no. Magma Jet would be slightly less poor, but also isn't good enough.
Point taken. However, is he good enough to tweak the manabase for? And since he'll be replacing burn, wouldn't the burn be too few? Is card draw off of Confidant the solution to everything?
In my testing, NO. The deck should be casting threats or burning face, instead of drawing cards. Dark Confidant pushes you a bit into the later turns of the game, which contradicts the whole point of the deck. Really, all he ever did for me was draw a card (draw a card to replace himself, draw another card, then the game was over).
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If that is the case, why not just use Simian Spirit Guide? Late game you can easily play him.
Agreed. But he's bad for the following reasons:
1. He's a weak beater in the 2cc slot (especially compared to other options like Goyf and Dryad)
2. He has an ass of 1 and dies to just about anything including a strong fart or dirty look. Or strong look and dirty fart. Take your pick.
3. He complicates the manabase making it weaker in the face of Wasteland and Stifle.
4. He makes running our most powerful burn much more difficult. The complicated manabase prevents us from casting Price or Progress or personally makes me too scared to run Fireblast. Removing both of those cards from the main deck seems like an aweful plan.
Generally this is a satsifactory plan, but I noticed that many of the decks running Jitte are running Silver Knight alsoRe opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it..
Tin-Street Hooligan takes care of Jittes, Chalices, Vials, and Pithing Needles. I'm telling ya, he's not a waste of a maindeck slot.
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I'm a bit wowed at the fact that this is a DTW.
It would seem like for some reason that this deck would have a difficult time against combo decks. How does this deck handle faster combo decks?
Can we stop it with the "I can't believe it's not butter!" comments? The deck is in this forum because it has put up the prerequisite results, plain and simple. Check your preconceptions at the door.
Regarding the combo matchups... The Breakfast matchup isn't bad at all, because we have infinite burn for their critters. Against TES, we lose game 1, then board in 8 cards and probably lose game 2 as well. Oh well.
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Hi There!
I've played ALOT ofAggro.. Not so much in Legacy, but in Vintage before Legacy got it's breakthrough in Denmark. I played it, of course, as a meta-hate.dec. With some cardchoices that would seem odd in Legacy. I never played alot of serious tournaments with it, or placed impressively.. But I sure hated some expensive decks. Ruining the opposing player's day.
Though I wanted to chip in anyways.
I think Price of Progress is an overlooked card here. It often burns for 6(+).
I'm thinking of toying around with this deck. But I would most certainly play Jitte in the main. Makes your MU against Aggro(-control) alot better.
Another card I would test is Magus of the Moon. Playing 4 Wooded, 4 Heath and some Forests.. If he does the job good, and the opponent has a bigger beater on the defense, then you just don't attack. If he's poor (in the Gobbo match). He's still a 2/2 beater/blocker that at least trades with a goblin.
When boarding he gets the kick for Pyroclasm or some insane Aggro-hate.
We have to look at SB cards for the particular Combo match. And we still have to mind Control.. We have to dedicate 8(+) SB slots for the Combo match, I think.
Hope to keep the discussion going..
MEMENTO MORI!
Danish Legacy Addict
I really like Price of Progress, because most of decks in my meta pack lots of duals and other non basic lands, and it easily becomes a second finisher just like Fireblast. Dealing "only" 6 damage por 1R is good enough, and there are always crazy plays like dealing 16 damage. Of course the opponent will play some basics if he's carefull, but you can even seriously hit goblins with a pair of Taigas and a Rishadan Port. I would always play this card, if not in the MB, then in the SB, but it makes us faster.
Against combo I really like Pirostatic Pillar. It buys us several turns and deals some damge while the opponent plays some brainstorm/cunning wish/burning wish and the removal/bouncer. This damages (easily 4-6) combined with the damage we can deal during those turns we have won (and consider that we have some more since the opponent would have trashed some tutors/draw) my finish the opponent. Of course its a hard matchup, but I don't think we can stop them, we just need to buy 4-5 turns. If a deck is faster than us, then, we should change things to slow them down.
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@largebrandon:
In a 3 colour build, half the reason for them is the mana fixing. In a 2 colour build, I probably wouldn't bother with either.
@Peter_Rotten:
1. Drawing an additional card more than makes up for this; while this deck goldfishes around turn 4 real games are rarely as fast and the card advantage adds up.Agreed. But he's bad for the following reasons:
1. He's a weak beater in the 2cc slot (especially compared to other options like Goyf and Dryad)
2. He has an ass of 1 and dies to just about anything including a strong fart or dirty look. Or strong look and dirty fart. Take your pick.
3. He complicates the manabase making it weaker in the face of Wasteland and Stifle.
4. He makes running our most powerful burn much more difficult. The complicated manabase prevents us from casting Price or Progress or personally makes me too scared to run Fireblast. Removing both of those cards from the main deck seems like an aweful plan.
2. Dryad is as vulnerable at first. While she gets tougher, having Confidant burned after he drew you cards is no issue at all.
3. The deck can support midgame Fireblasts and is usually the aggressor; Wasteland should rarely be a problem. Stifle is annoying on the draw, but the fetch count doesn't really change by that much. With 4 cards at 1b and 1g, everything else at r mana denial isn't a major concern.
4a. Confidant and Fireblast isn't a problem from my experience. More often than not, taking 6 has helped me overwhelm my opponent before the life loss beame a problem, through the ability to play whatever else I drew and have a bigass burn spell that I can cast immediately. There are better scenarios, but it's hardly something to fear.
4b. I never even considered Price of Progress (hit or miss, no effect on board position). If you're resolved to run it and consider it a star of the deck, I agree that another splash for a mere 4 cards makes no sense.
Dryads are a little too unreliable for my tastes, being only good when cast turn 2. We can't really abuse them anyway due to a lack of cantrips. Vinelasher Kudzu is similar but worse. Tarmogoyf is in a league on its own, and I honestly believe Dark Confidant to be the next best (read: least objectionable) 2-drop as straight beaters simply aren't efficient enough any more.
The only question in my opinion is whether he's worth a splash... which might depend on your metagame (how effective is Price of Progress; does black add strong sideboard choices, do you fear mana denial).
Another valid point. That post was mostly a reaction to boarding Krosan Grip for Jitte (which I believe to be overkill under the combined concerns of mana cost, the potential of being dead and the alternatives of burning the wielder/Just Winning).Quote:
Re opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it.
Generally this is a satsifactory plan, but I noticed that many of the decks running Jitte are running Silver Knight also .
Jittes on our own and Tin Street Hooligan have the advantage of never being totally dead, those would go in against Jittes if we had them. Things like Shattering Spree/Pithing Needle are cheap and quite strong and might go in (definitely if there are other applications).
I have a question. Goyf Sligh isn't strictly R/G for colors is it? I don't enjoy the idea of my deck dying so easily to combo.
Can this topic also be the discussion of other G/X combinations? Or would those ideas be a completely different deck type?
This thread should stay focused on RG although we are rather enamored with discussing the RGb build with Confidant.
So how have the Lavamancers been working for you? [Whomever is running it].
It would seem counter productive to take cards out of the graveyard when Goyf needs them to be big and beefy. Are there any other pingers that can be used in Grim lavamancers place?
Has anyone considered using Sulfuric Vortex in either the main or the sideboard? It would help with any sort of life-gaining decks which normally cause Burn decks problems. [Though I'm not sure how much of a problem life gain is for Goyf Sligh].
Also can we pick a different name for this deck other than Goyf sligh? Just call it R/G beats? I don't mean to sound picky but... see my sig.
An oft-asked question. Lavamancers are essential to the deck. PR put it very nicely in the opening post when he said "Grim’s job is to deal 4+ damage to the opponent and/or keep chump blockers off the table." You can accomplish this while judiciously selecting cards in your graveyard to RFG without diminishing goyf-size. Often, you only need to keep 1 or 2 cards in your graveyard to maintain maximum goyf-size. As PR also mentioned, you can also use Grim to purposely reduce goyf-size if you're losing the goyf war.
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@Iranon: It seems like you're really sold on Confidant. Care to give us an Rgb list?
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