I was wondering if perhaps, as sideboard tech to improve the abominable Landstill matchup, we might consider Akroma, Angel of Fury.
Oftentimes, decks will save their point removal, and wait at least the extra turn for you to discard another card to Raiders before Swordsing it. This buys you the turn you need to unmorph Akroma and beat with it.
In addition, decks will often avoid countering Ritual effects like the Songs in favor of the Threat. So you can force Akroma past a counter wall that way as well.
Once it's on the board, the control deck has two turns to find an answer or panic- less if you've snuck in any other damage.
And, it creates counterfire with Raiders, which is very nice.
I think 2 in the board is the right number.
For the love of all that is good and holy, will either Phantom or Tacosnape PLEASE update the deck?
Originally Posted by Pinder
Sadly I have not worked on the deck at all lately (even the last build was almost all Taco). The deck has really been hit hard by the recent meta shift. No more Goblins means our sweepers (and Jitte) are less powerful. Threshold, thanks to Tarmogoyf, can often turn FtK into a laughingstock, and I don't even know how out hate hits the new combo decks.
So basically I have et the deck aside until I have a revelation or they print something great for it. I looked at Lorwyn, but didn't see anything promising. (WotC can champion my ass).
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Masticore
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
3 Demonfire
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
The Threshold metagame shift has led to three major changes in the Legacy metagame.
1) Obviously, Threshold in all of its splashes, has ascended.
2) Goblins, which has a poor thresh matchup, has declined.
3) Landstill, which has a poor Goblins matchup, has ascended. And look! it has a good Thresh matchup!
In order for Dragon Stompy to be sucessful at this time, I believe that the deck need to morph, to drop some of its sacred cows (or at least move them to the board), and look to the weaknesses of Threshold. At the same time, it needs to improve its control matchup against Landstill, etc. So, what are the weaknesses of Threshold, then?
1) The mana base.
Thresh players have long understood that UGw Threshold is good vs. combo, UGr threshold is good versus aggro, and in the mirror, UG threshold is best. Why is this? Why, even when limited to a deck without Meddling Mages, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, does UG pull it out? Obviously, much of the success can be attributed to the maindeck Counter/Top engine prevalent in many straight UG decks. But more than that, the stronger mana base is what allows UG players to run Counterbalance, and more subtly, 4 Wasteland. That simple land can lock a UGx player out of a good 8-16 cards, depending on the build. Because in a deck with few mana sources turning just one in the right color off can spell disaster. Now, while Wasteland might be difficult to support, Dragon Stompy has access to a card just as good if not better- Blood Moon.
Wow, this is going a lot longer than I thought it would go. More later.
So it turns out that this deck had some serious sucess at TMLO.
THoughts?
Well it seems to me that Blood Moon effects have never been stronger (and being able to run magus, which is never dead main is great), and sweepers may have to be dropped with the lack of Goblins running around. Other than that I don't have much of an idea where the deck should go.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
I've been testing this deck lately and I'm very impressed on how it's been performing.
First off I'd like to say Magus of the Moon is a HOUSE all versions of the deck should definatley run 4 he alone improves many match ups (*****, Truffle Shuffle , Breakfast , and even slows down TES) and he can be laid on the table on turn 1 easily.
Secondly I have been having debates on wether to run Rakados Pit Dragon or Covetous Dragon. C.Dragon's drawback is nearly nonexistent due to the fact you almost always have a artifact in play. But RP.Dragon can be game winning if you can pump it enough , I don't know if that is possible only running 18 lands but I haven't tested enough to say for sure.
Thirdly I would like to say one of this decks worst match ups is the Ichorid match up and I've tested a version with 3 Maindeck Crypts it worked pretty well even against ***** (Hosed down all the goyfs to 1/2's)
So here's the list i have been working with , I made a few changes to Parcher's list (Drastically changed the SB).
Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain
Creatures
4 Arc-Slogger
3 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Sulfur Elemental
3 Covetous Dragon / Rakados Pit Dragon
Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
I haven't tested the SB much but it seems like it really helps the Combo MU and the MUC/***** MU's I'm thinking about finding room for a few pyroclasms just in case I run into Goblins and what not.
I also didn't feel like Sulfur Elemental was a good beater i would pefer making the singleton of him a Pit Dragon which I should probably do.
This deck has very few bad match ups due to Magus , Chalice , 3Sphere , and the other "lock" pieces and they are all easily dropped on early turns due to the acceleration we play. Also the Fatties and pick up some swords and start smashing face hard and strong which usually turns out to be a 3-4 turn clock. I say that people should pick up this deck and test it out it seems very promising in this meta right now.
Team The Copenhavers
I would highly, highly recommend not running Covetous Dragon. I'm really always surprised when someone brings him up. Artifact destruction is already a problem for this deck without turning it into a creature destruction 2 for 1. And with the advent of Shattering Spree and Ancient Grudge, there is really no amount of artifacts in play that make me feel safe (not to mention a deed blown at 2 or 3 will usually kill him). Lastly, Pit Dragon is quicker and often more deadly. Like turn two kill deadly.
I'm surprised, but not upset that people are finding Trinisphere and SoFI so useful. I would always go with 3 Jitte before any swords, but I'm okay with a 3/2 split. I really have never liked Trini against Control and Aggro Control, but have never really tested it. Making most combo matchups an auto win might be worth it though.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Covetous Dragon is utter assfruit. Don't play him.
Rakdos Pit Dragon, on the other hand, is a gold mine. Don't forget, he can kill as early as turn two with a great hand, and he's ungodly in the midgame.
If you want my updated list, here you go.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
Explanations of updates:
Flametongue Kavu is gone, as he's no longer quite worthwhile in this format. There's very little that he kills that Slogger/Razormane doesn't.
Pyrostatic Pillar is gone in favor of Trinisphere. Pyrostatic wasn't really doing anything in a post-Solidarity universe, and the few decks it's good against, so is Trinisphere. Tarmogoyf also made Pyrostatic Pillar far worse against Threshold, bizarrely enough, as it cut down on the number of spells an opponent needed to resolve to beat you.
Pyroclasm is gone conditionally. It hits too little in this format, and it messes up your Magus of the Moon. Boarded Kegs will handle any ETW Tokens, and the size of your creatures combined with Pyrokinesis, in addition to the Slogger/Razormane abilities, should be enough to handle Goblins, although that match has weakened somewhat. If Goblins or ETW-decks are highly prevalent in your metagame, obviously, bring it back. Pyroclasm shouldn't be forgotten despite it being out of the list for the moment.
Rolling Earthquake is gone. The life loss becomes too relevant in a format where you end up racing Tarmogoyfs half the time. (I personally never liked it much anyway, but Phantom was a huge fan and it admittedly had its better moments.
Sulfur Elemental is gone. He's neat, he's cutesy, and he doesn't really do anything useful except uncounterably kill Decree of Justice tokens. It isn't worth it. The deck has no card draw, and it can't afford to have 2-toughness threats that don't singlehandedly win games (Or double as mana acceleration).
Smash is gone. Too narrow.
Hellbent is in, baby! Gathan Raiders makes the mana curve of the deck absolutely delicious, and he gets rid of extra Jittes or whatever happens to be clogging your hand up. Pit Dragon goes up to 4 at FTK's old mana curve slot, asisn't significantly harder to get than
Simian Spirit Guide is in. Gathan Raiders made him the swing card. You actually -need- to empty your hand quicker with the deck now, strangely enough. SSG speeds you up and fits the bill nicely. He's a crappy equippable threat, though, so don't get it in your head that he's going to win games with a Jitte stuck to him.
Sword of Fire and Ice is still out. This is seriously the most overrated card in all of Legacy, I swear. Now, I know SOFI is great for making your guys bigger than a Tarmogoyf, and that Jitte clogs your hand for Hellbent. However, here's why Jitte still stays 4-of in my list in favor of no SOFI's.
Razormane Masticore is still in. Double Sloggers are useless, a single Slogger can only use his ability about 3-4 times before you run out of deck, Razormane facilitates hellbent, and for the 99th time, he can swing into every creature in the entire format and almost always still live. Someone has a ridiculous 7/8 Tarmogoyf? Who cares! Zap it for three and swing!
1. Jitte is a better card than Sword of Fire and Ice.
2. Jitte is a lot easier on your mana curve than Sword of Fire and Ice. He particularly goes better following a turn three Seething Song that loads up your board with creatures. Seething Song into SOFI-Equip is an overrated play, however, because you will almost -never- have a threat down with a Seething Song still in your hand.
3. The card draw against control doesn't matter because as long as you've got one of your big threats down against control, you're okay. Therefore, either you're on the offensive still and the card draw is only there to increase your chances of recovering, or you don't have a threat and SOFI is as weak as Jitte.
4. Jitte does not interfere with Hellbent unless it's blocked via Meddling Mage. In order for it to do so, you must have a Hellbent creature and a Jitte in play, and if this is the case, you're generally in okay shape. If it -does- interfere, you can pitch it to Razormane or Gathan Raiders. If it's Needled, you can drop a second one fearlessly.
5. Jitte's not bad against Tarmogoyf either. A 5/5 with a Jitte equipped -is- going to take a Tarmogoyf down. The only difference is that it might die in the process.
...So that about covers my updates.
I really like that list Taco. Have you tried Demonfire? Parcher seemed to have some success with it and it would be an awesome finisher or creature removal. A 2 of would be pretty good.
How has the 7 Blood Moons done? Have you considered dropping the 3 enchantments for the thrid Trini and 2 Demonfires? Anyways, here is the list I have been working. Haven't tested it, but I will once I can get the few cards I need.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Trinisphere
2 Demonfire
SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
4 Blood Moon
2 Powder Keg
1 Trinisphere
I want to fit some WOrbs in the board just because I love the card and it is devastating against any control.
I like every single part of your list except for the omission of Pithing Needle in the sideboard. I can't even begin to explain how vital this can be. Certain games, Chalice blows and Needle is ungodly. Needle skyrockets your control matchup, helps against Belcher, helps against Goblins, and gives you a fair fighting shot against Survival's Genesis/Shriekmaw lock eating your testicles.
I have not tried Demonfire at all. Actually, I hadn't even considered it until I saw Parcher's list, and while I dismissed it at first, I now think it might be worth trying in Landstill/MUC-heavy metagames. Demonfire's pretty bad as a removal spell as it gives you severe tempo losses (And your mana is already strained enough as is), but if you can wear the opponent down to any degree, it gives you the opportunity to rip it off the top of your deck, finish your opponent off, and they're left powerless to stop it. I'm not ecstatic about it, but I think it could have potential and there are worse things that could be in your deck.
7 Blood Moons, however, is format-eating. Seriously. It's as if your deck goes "DECK HUNGRY! Om nom nom Format." It wasn't until recently I cut the eighth from maindeck for a third Arc-Slogger, and I'm still debating this choice in my head. Ridiculously enough, Blood Moon doesn't just wreck control and a lot of aggro-control, it's also debatably as good against combo as Pyrostatic Pillar was. It isn't even really bad against Goblins, as it at least protects you from their manabase disruption. It can even prevent you from taking too much damage over the long haul from Tomb, or let you keep rolling into your curve if you play an early City. Not to mention, any moon effect improves your ability to pump the daylights out of a Hellbent Rakdos Pit Dragon. Om nom nom format, indeed.
It's worth noting, however, that you have to drop the curve of the deck to get away with it. This is actually another reason I don't like Demonfire, due to the mana loss off the Blood Moons.
Laughed my ass off when I read that.
Anyways, I have wanted to put needle in the board, but I just don't have it right now and that is the list I plan to play at next weeks weekly tourney. It is definitely in my deck on MWS.
I have been loving Demonfire. If you just go all out aggro and get them down to those last few life point, it is GG.
I do like Blood Moon, I just wasn't sure if main was the right place for it. I was wondering if 7 Blood Moons MD were overkill. I guess not, but I think I would rather have them SB. I think it is meta and personal preference, but I still need to test it so I guess I shouldn't speak about it.
Well, obviously, it's a metagame call. There was a time when I would advocate running neither one, because Dragon Stompy was originally designed to crush Goblins, Threshold, and Solidarity back when they were the big three, and the Moons were fairly weak against two out the three. Dragon Stompy is a fairly metagame-based deck, which is why I don't rule out Pyroclasm's inclusion in sideboard.
However, nowadays, unless I knew a metagame was going to be almost devoid of nonbasic-heavy decks, I'd run a minimum of 6 - The 4 Magi, and the 2 Bloods.
It's important to realize that the Moons are virtually -never- dead cards. Even against an opponent with all basics, a Moon will increase your capacity to pump a Pit Dragon or, in case you have the library to make it relevant, throw Slogger-Shocks. Also, don't forget, any red card imprints on a Chrome Mox, and any card in your hand period will flop over Gathan Raiders.
It's also important to realize how many games you don't even have to play because of these cards. If you play 5 rounds of swiss in a tournament, I can almost guarantee you that you'll win at least three games on the strength of the Moons alone. You might win entire matches on the Moons alone. This obviously might not be true forever. Dragon Stompy is stronger than it's ever been before in Legacy and may be stronger than it will ever be again, and once people realize it's better than a fair amount of decks sitting in the DTB Forum, it might see enough play to where other decks have to adjust accordingly. But for now, Moons thoroughly own Legacy.
I looks like Empty the Slogger and Dragon Stompy get closer to each other again, now that Magus of the Moon and Spirit Guide are included in the DS list. I agree that Empty the Warrens is no auto-include in the current Meta because people stuff their decks with Stifle and Explosives and so I think it is ok to run Dragon over it. That is also one of the reasons why I think that you are right about saying that the Meta is golden for these decks now.
The 2 main reasons:
- Moon effects are nothing but insane right now; when I have the choice between turn 1 Moon and turn 1 Chalice@1 against an unknown deck I'd go for the Moon
- People run Spell Snare, E. Explosives, Smother, Counterbalance and Stifle maindeck in huge quantities, all of them suck against DS/ETS
I disagree with the inclusion of Demonfire. It is bad as removal in the Goyf/Goose/Grunt era and Goyf decks are also too fast to wait for 10 Mana to burn the opponent to death.
RE: DemonFire: How often is your hand empty? Often enough to have Rakdos Pit Dragon up to three I would bargain. If not, then would Kaervek's Torch be good enough. I bet not. So the question is "can you count on having an empty hand?"
I really like to play this with ungoldy amounts of disruption, with a full set of Chalices, Trinispheres and Magi + 2 Blood Moons. At the same time, I believe people are overdoing it with equipment.
Jitte is usually not needed on the fat stuff and unlikely to do much on 2/2s without relevant combat abilities like evasion or first strike. I wouldn't ever play more than 2 and rather consider more big beaters or creature control (Playing disruption pieces, then clearing their board is strong when your topdecks put them on a very short clock).
I disagree with Demonfire, but to play devil's advocate, the answer to "How often is your hand empty?" is "Almost always." The deck has no draw and frequently goes Hellbent around turn three or four and never looks back, the exceptions being when you're keeping a card or two around to nurse a Razormane Masticore, or when you're having mana problems.
However, Demonfire is only good when a deck with lots of card advantage and counters in hand (IOW, Landstill) has stabilized at a moderately low life total and has more counters and solutions ready than you can ever topdeck your way out of. Here is where Demonfire shines.
In every other situation imaginable, Demonfire struggles. There are regrettably some games you have to win without ever getting a consistent 5 mana on the board due to City of Traitors and Seething Song providing a less than stable manabase, and when you factor in the Moons shrinking your-producing Lands to
Demonfire -is- versatile, however. It's a removal spell and it's uncounterable unpreventable reach, but it's just bad at doing either one.
A full set of Trinispheres makes me cringe, considering their complete redundancy and the fact that Trinisphere and Blood Moon isn't really a combo in the same way that, say, Trinisphere and Back to Basics would be. This deck doesn't really have any effects that cut down on the full quantity of mana an opponent can produce. Unlike Stax, which can actually create locks with it, Trinisphere exists in this deck largely to stall for time at an investment ofand a card, and its dividends vary highly from deck to deck. By having multiple Trinispheres in your hand, you cut down on your ability to capitalize on said dividends.
Jitte offers four things the deck lacks. Lifegain, removal of small threats (Which is more necessary since Pyroclasm isn't maindecked anymore), a way to make sure your creatures can fight through bigger opposing creatures, and a way to get rid of opponent's Jittes, which can quickly spell the end for you if left unchecked. It also does so at a relatively harmless curve. On a less than stellar opening hand, it can come down turn one off a Tomb or Mountain/Mox, which will have it ready when a threat next comes down. It also goes Play-equip-swing for, which can happen a fair amount on turn two and almost constantly on turn three, and curves out especially well considering you maindeck 12 3-drops and can cheat out your 4-drops or 5-drops early via Seething Song or Simian Spirit Guide.
Having -some- form of removal is important, and Jitte's the cream of the crop. Considering Pyroclasm and FTK aren't around to cover this role well anymore, it leaves Slogger/Razormane/Jitte as the extent of your removal, with possible cameos from Demonfire. Remember, your disruption pieces aren't good at stopping threats.
Some sort of removal is very desirable, yes... pretty much everything left me underwhelmed in practice though. Rift Bolt and Pyroclasm are rather poor. While Jitte, Earthquake and Pyrokinesis felt mediocre, I disliked the Earthquake least.
I'm not saying Jitte is wrong in the deck but I definitely wouldn't play a playset. Running even more equipment (like 3+2 split with SoF&I) also seems totally out of hte question.
A sizable amount of equipment in a deck that's not all that consistent anyway and tha features a rather limited set of efficient carriers makes me wary.
Concerning Redundancy... with 4 Magi, 3 Blood Moons seem a greater sin than 4 Trinispheres.
I'll concede you could probably get away with three Jittes without a whole lot of anguish. Rift Bolt I tried for awhile and didn't like (after it occurred to me that suspending a removal spell on turn one just made your opponent not play something that died to it for a turn) and Pyroclasm's not quite good enough to maindeck. I'm also iffy on Kinesis and may switch back to Clasm in board. I don't like Rolling Earthquake all that much for the sake of the life loss, though it completely rocks in certain matchups and is probably still a better choice than Demonfire.
They may -seem- so, but they aren't necessarily. Any of the Moons can be imprinted on a Mox or pitched to a Pyrokinesis should you run Pyrokinesis. The same can't be said of Trinisphere, meaning Trinisphere will cause you some problematic opening hands that the Moons won't. What's more, multiple Magus of the Moons actually do something, namely beating for 2, and they are far more prone to removal than Trinisphere, making having the extras of them quite useful.Concerning Redundancy... with 4 Magi, 3 Blood Moons seem a greater sin than 4 Trinispheres.
What's more, Trinisphere won't singlehandedly win all that many games unless you're anticipating a lot of storm combo. You have nothing to back it up. The Moons, on the other hand, will win several games on their own.
In certain metagames, ones where I know there to be plenty of Storm Combo, I might switch out Blood Moon #3 for Trinisphere #3. The bright side of packing a total of 4 of each between maindeck and board is that it allows you a fairly customizable maindeck setup.
Agree with most of what's being said here. It seems to me that Demonfire, Trini, and Blood moon (not magus though) are meta calls as far as main vs side.
The one thing I have to disagree with Taco about (and lord knows I don't do that lightly) is Sulfur Elemental. I love this guy. I was always hesitant to run him in the sweeper version, but he's perfect now. Ignore the white creature ability. All that lets you do is trade with Grunts and kill a Decree token. The fact that he is an uncounterable instant is huge in a deck that runs Jitte. He is a Vial like combo trick all on his own. He is also possibly the best way to kill a Mongoose ever. I love dropping a Jitte on turn one, undazeable Sulfur EOT 2. Untap turn 3, equip, win. Even if he dies having an active Jitte is such a big deal for this deck, especially in the goyf meta we live in.
The two toughness can be a concern with UGr Thresh and Goyf Sligh running around, but Chalice, Trini, Blood moon, and often flash can protect him long enough to get a Jitte going. Then he can protect himself.
Everything else seems about right. I think the most moon effects i would run mainboard is 6, but it really is insane so i could be wrong. I've never tested SoFI here because it seemed like a bad idea, but i might try a 3/1 split with Jitte just to see if my notions were right.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
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