The real question I was hinting at is oblivion ring possibly better than EE?
The only pluses on EEs side are that it puts cards into Graveyard (Treshhold and goyf) and that it handles EtW.
Swords to Plowshares and Pithing Needle handle most of the things you would want to Oblivion Ring (can that be a verb?). Engineered Explosives nails artifacts and enchantments that you can't get with the Needle or the Swords, just like Oblivion Ring does, but EE can also nail creatures like Mongeese that are untargettable, an entire herd of Empty the Warrens tokens, or two for one (or better) opponents that play into it. Oblivion Ring has a little bit more flexibility in some cases (You can't EE an Akroma or a Worship), but will not generate card advantage, cannot be "stored" for use at instant speed, and won't save you from Empty the Warrens tokens.
There may be a case to be made for Oblivion Ring, but the deck is incredibly tight. The EE slot is the first slot to be played with, though, so I may be underestimating the card.
InfoNinjas
Well, let's say in the mirror match, Counterbalance is on the Table. Oblivion Ring can get around Counterbalance because most players who run Counterbalance dont have many 3c cards unless they run Trinket Mage. But problem is, it doesnt stop their Goyfs from killing you.Originally Posted by mackaber
This is where EE comes in; it gets around Counterbalance and wipes the board clean of Goyfs. You can even set it at 6 in case the opponent does have 3c and 4c cards.
Although EE cant take care of Humility, most decks that run Humility has ways to answer Oblivion Ring anyway, like Landstill has their own EEs and Rifter has maindeck Disenchants.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
That's whassup, that's whassup.
By the way, could you please post the Hatfield NQGw list again please? I liked it very much, except of the Counterspells. But I also like them because now NQGw has got 2 various slots.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I tend to play Pithing Needles or EEs in those slots. Also, heres the list;
// Played by Alix Hatfield
// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mystic Enforcer
// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Control Magic
1 Counterbalance
As for my list, I have the following
-1 Mystic Enforcer
-2 Counterspell
+3 Pithing Needle
As for the SB, it's
-2 Seal of Pridordium
-4 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Control Magic
+3 Engineered Explosives
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
And the list I run is -1 Mystic Enforcer, -1 Daze, -1 Predict, +1 land, +2 Needle.
I like having the two Counterspells main to take try and hold on to the last few turns before the game ends. There comes a time when Counterbalance and Daze will not counter game ending threats, and your creatures are not quite ready to go the distance. Here Pithing Needle and Counterspell can buy you the time you still need. For example, Worship, Wrath, Deed, Damnation, Fact or Fiction, Vedalkin Shackles, and a host of other cards can turn a game around just before you can finish it. I like having 2 more hard counters to back up Force of Will before for the late game.
The deck does feel creature light sometimes, even with the Tops and Cantrips, but overall, the Mongeese, Goyfs, and pair of Enforcers are enough to get the job done when paired with the cantrips. A full suit of Mages waits in the board to speed up the clock against combo while buying time.
InfoNinjas
I must say I really don't like NQG without needles as seen in Hatfields list (you have around 30 % versus gobs without them). And I am also a big fan of two to three counterspells to supplement CB in the late game.
I really like the utility that needle affords, but they are pretty bad in the mirror- which is becoming so much of the deck to beat right now- and having more counterspells, or even cantrips in the place of the needles has seemed really inviting to me recently. Anyways, I've been playing around with using Stifles in their place, as I feel like that makes players play into them. People hold Deeds and Explosives until they have an answer for needle generally, but with Stifle they try to use them and get stifled. With so many of the cantrips as end of turn business anyways, you'll always have the mana open when you need it, so that is less of a problem now that there are only 4 sorcery speed cantrips in the deck (I realize that some people still run Portent/Serum Visions, I'm just not sold on the wisdom of this).
Really, I understand the shift from Needles in the main, but I do think that they warrant a place in the board at least, and that was something that I found lacking in the Hatfields' version.
Team IcBE-
The orgiastic future that year by year recedes before us.
Team KegStand- No worthwhile tagline
It may suprise you that what the Hatfields have been up to lately, is actually running Counterbalance-Top maindeck.
I have some lists used not too long ago by both Hatfield brothers.
Here's Alix list that he Top 8ed a DLD in Syracuse with;
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
// Spells
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [U] Control Magic
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
And here's a list Jesse Hatfield had been playing with at The Lucky Frog;
// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [RAV] Island (1)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [OD] Predict
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
And those are their somewhat recent lists...
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Those, and somehow all other sideboards, look kinda different then mine
4 MM
4 Needle
4 Grip
3 CB
I play Repeal MD in the CB slot.
Hi guys,
i have played UGw Thresh online for quite a while now (although very occasionnally, so I can't really be considered that experimented with the deck), and i have finally decided to actually build in the following weeks.
Here's he list I'm considering :
The list was built from studying the lists I've seen here and there, and then based upon my personal experience with the deck. I'd like to know what you guys think about it.Code:// Lands 4 [ON] Flooded Strand 2 [ON] Polluted Delta 2 [ON] Windswept Heath 3 [B] Tropical Island 3 [B] Tundra 2 [LND] Island (4) 1 [PT] Forest (1) 1 [LND] Plains (4) // Creatures 4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer // Spells 4 [AL] Force of Will 4 [NE] Daze 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle 4 [IA] Brainstorm 4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares 4 [LRW] Ponder 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top 4 [OD] Predict 3 [CS] Counterbalance // Sideboard SB: 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
It's also certainly not a definite list, as I also have a few specific questions as a matter of fact.
-Hydroblasts/BEB in the board : i've seen them numerous times here and there in the SB of different lists, so I let them be for now to ask about it, as i can't seem to really find what archetype they would be useful against.
-At the same time, I'm seeing less and less EE, either in the main or in the boards. But EtW tokens were the kill of choice of many combo decks just a few weeks ago, which seemed to justify EE's presence in and of itself (not mentioning general utility and versatility of the card). Is there a particular reason for EE disappearing like that ?
-17/18 lands. I run 18, mainly because this was the number I started with, and can't really complain about it up til now. There were a few times where I ended up drawing one unneeded land, but it hasn't been THAT common at all. Conversely, there were also a few times (also not that common at all, probably even a little bit less) where I wished I could have found an additional one. Both seem to balance each other nicely (although if I couldn't choose 18 and had to choose between 17 and 19, I would go with 17 without any hesitation). So I've sticked to 18, but maybe 17 is the correct choice. Don't players running 17 lands feel it might be a bit risky in case of a random Stifle or Wasteland effect ?
-Mystic Enforcer/Pithing Needle : like with the Hydro/EE numbers in the SB, I'm seeing less and less PN in the main, and more and more Enforcers. Is there a reason for this change ? PN has always seemed like an amazing general utility card to me. Is there any archetype against which it has proven disappointing ? On the other hand, Enforcers look like definite finishers to me (at 4cc, they're the more expensive spell of the list, except for fow of course), and with that many cantriping going around, 1-2 should be quite enough, but definitely not 3... I mean, you don't want to see one in your starting hand, and don't want to see two of them during the game either...
-Threads of Disloyalty / Control Magic : Threads seem to be the correct choice to me. The 1cc difference is a big deal, and what can't we realistically steal with Threads that we could with CM, except maybe for opposing Enforcers ?
-Stupid question : I have played against an vial affinity player yesterday (it was my first time against this archetype). We played four games. MWS crashed in the late game of the first one, which was looking very favorable for me given the board position and the answers i still had in hand. I won the second (still no SB as we just replayed another game 1). But then, I lost the two SB matches.
Although he actually had a bit of luck (therapied two goyfs in game 2 and flashbacked it to get rid of 2 stp), and then somewhat of a godhand game 3 - artifact land, vial, tormod, then chalice @ 1 while i still had 2 stp and 1 ponders in hand after using the first, and successively drew ponder, ponder (the fourth one !) then brainstorm - I was wondering if it was worth finding place in the SB for two Energy Flux (or something else ?). I'm not sure, as it doesn't look like it's a very common deck, and I feel I should have the upper hand in the match with the current list...
So what do you guys think ? Thanks for your help...
Woohooo, I placed 2nd out of 17 people at a small tourney nearby.
I played Anti's NQGw, but with a Island-only Manabase so I could support Vedalken Shackles against those random Aggrodecks.
This was my list:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IFD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
I won against Counterslivers, 5color Domain Zoo, 4colro Survival and BWR Soul (a mixture between Ale and Red Death). my loss was against a random UR Stax against which I was unprepared and I had a very unfortunate draw.
I have to say that the Counterbalance Engine is insanely good, as well as the Shackles. I also had the optimized Sideboard for the meta there without knowing it and the 3 Needles were also a meta call because I'm insanely afraid of Lukas Dupljanin and his Survival, because he always draws like a god.
The Shackles were also very good against these matchups.
But the Needle-Slot can still used for other Metagame Calls, so you can also play Shackles, Explosives, Repeal, Stifle or whatsoever.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I like the Maindeck, but I really think you need to cut the Plains for a Mystic Enforcer, because if Counterbalance doesnt work out well, you always have Mystic Enforcer to steal undecided games with.
Will do.The list was built from studying the lists I've seen here and there, and then based upon my personal experience with the deck. I'd like to know what you guys think about it.
And they'll be answered.It's also certainly not a definite list, as I also have a few specific questions as a matter of fact.
TES, Vial Goblins. If you feel that they're weak, run a split of 3/3 in Stifles and Tivadar's Crusades.-Hydroblasts/BEB in the board : i've seen them numerous times here and there in the SB of different lists, so I let them be for now to ask about it, as i can't seem to really find what archetype they would be useful against.
They might come back actually. The reasons why they cut them now is because of the presence of EE and Pyroclasm everywhere. That's been dropping. But if you're going to play EE, you should play 3 of them.-At the same time, I'm seeing less and less EE, either in the main or in the boards. But EtW tokens were the kill of choice of many combo decks just a few weeks ago, which seemed to justify EE's presence in and of itself (not mentioning general utility and versatility of the card). Is there a particular reason for EE disappearing like that ?
Not really. If they built this deck without Wasteland in mind, then that's just wrong. Besides, isnt that why you run cantrips and Needles? I hardly had problems with Wastelands... but I always had problems with 43 Land... and that's because they play more multiple Wastelands than most decks.-17/18 lands. I run 18, mainly because this was the number I started with, and can't really complain about it up til now. There were a few times where I ended up drawing one unneeded land, but it hasn't been THAT common at all. Conversely, there were also a few times (also not that common at all, probably even a little bit less) where I wished I could have found an additional one. Both seem to balance each other nicely (although if I couldn't choose 18 and had to choose between 17 and 19, I would go with 17 without any hesitation). So I've sticked to 18, but maybe 17 is the correct choice. Don't players running 17 lands feel it might be a bit risky in case of a random Stifle or Wasteland effect ?
So run 17, but since your mana base is already looking great, just cut the Plains for another Mystic Enforcer.
That is because Pithing Needle is only good against Vial Goblins, and a small amount of other decks. Although they may be good against other decks, you dont needed Pithing Needle at the time because if Goblins resolves a Vial, you technically just lost, whereas against a deck like Landstill, you can still fight back after they play a board sweeper.-Mystic Enforcer/Pithing Needle : like with the Hydro/EE numbers in the SB, I'm seeing less and less PN in the main, and more and more Enforcers. Is there a reason for this change ? PN has always seemed like an amazing general utility card to me. Is there any archetype against which it has proven disappointing ? On the other hand, Enforcers look like definite finishers to me (at 4cc, they're the more expensive spell of the list, except for fow of course), and with that many cantriping going around, 1-2 should be quite enough, but definitely not 3... I mean, you don't want to see one in your starting hand, and don't want to see two of them during the game either...
But when I played with Needles back then, I actually always wanted to see them in my opening hand, just because it deals with randomness. I wouldn't say they're bad, but it's awesome utility. In fact, I still run Needles.
As for the 3rd Mystic Enforcer part, it may be because it is savagely awesome, bomb in the mirror, and breaks stalemates. He's probably my 2nd favorite flier of all time (1st goes to Fledgling Dragon), but unlike Dragon, I'm more willing to play him as a 3-of... so it might be my favorite flier of all time then, I guess.
With that build, I hardly see the 1 mana difference being a big deal. Personally, I love stealing Enforcers.-Threads of Disloyalty / Control Magic : Threads seem to be the correct choice to me. The 1cc difference is a big deal, and what can't we realistically steal with Threads that we could with CM, except maybe for opposing Enforcers ?
Personally, if I'm playing against Affinity, I'd rather run Serenity because it isnt narrow. But, Energy Flux works just as well. If you're worried about Affinity, just start packing more EEs and other things like Flux or Serenity. Personally, I'm not worried because I already run 3 EEs and 2 Control Magic (which are amazing).-Stupid question : I have played against an vial affinity player yesterday (it was my first time against this archetype). We played four games. MWS crashed in the late game of the first one, which was looking very favorable for me given the board position and the answers i still had in hand. I won the second (still no SB as we just replayed another game 1). But then, I lost the two SB matches.
Although he actually had a bit of luck (therapied two goyfs in game 2 and flashbacked it to get rid of 2 stp), and then somewhat of a godhand game 3 - artifact land, vial, tormod, then chalice @ 1 while i still had 2 stp and 1 ponders in hand after using the first, and successively drew ponder, ponder (the fourth one !) then brainstorm - I was wondering if it was worth finding place in the SB for two Energy Flux (or something else ?). I'm not sure, as it doesn't look like it's a very common deck, and I feel I should have the upper hand in the match with the current list...
@Adan: I like that list. Also, congratz on the 2nd place finish.
As for my current Sideboard, so far, it's
1 Counterbalance
3 Vedalken Shackles/2 Shackles, 1 Enforcer
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Hydroblast
But if you feel Hydroblasts are sucky against Goblins, I'd throw in Crusades instead, and cut the 3rd EE for a basic Plains.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Thanks. But I could have been 1st. I somehow kept a hand against that random Stax thingy, and then he went something like 1st Turn Tomb, Mox Diamond, Goblin Welder, Chalice set on 1. Screw this! And then I didn't draw a single Tarmogoyf and died to WELDER BEATDOWN. But the thing is that I would have won game 1 if I had drawn Tarmogoyf. I had a Mystic Enforcer in my hand and he had Powder Keg set on 2, as well as EE. Because he somehow sensed that I got Enforcer, he began to set Powder Keg up to 4.
If I would have drawn Tarmogoyf, he would have made pressure, forcing him to sacrafice EE, destroying his own Powder Keg so I could play Enforcer ftw.
But no Goyf. That was bitter.
Game 2 I kept a Hand with Force and he did the same thing and I forced Chalice of the Void. But the Turn after he played Trinisphere. I didn't draw a third land for Krosan Grip and then he played Smokestack. I drew something except a land and GG.
Ah, but anyways, what's the matter with those Seal of Primordium??? Are they somehow important? I'd rather play something else, do you really need that much Disenchant-effects?
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
First of all, thanks for all your input, it is greatly appreciated.
Yeah, I played a few games and thought about the same thing a little while after posting, and realized the only times where i had actually missed lands up til now where when my 1cc cantrips had been shut down by a resolved chalice, and i was waiting for a third land to grip it - which is, yeah, not that common anyway. While I otherwise usually keep filtering out quite a bit of unneeded land with the cantrips. So, I'll cut the Plains, dropping to 17 lands, and since I also have to admit that i've sometimes missed an additional threat, the slot will go to a second Enforcer.
About Hydro/BEBs :
Well, Goblins' been on the decline lately, and it looks like it'll be a durable thing, so I'm not that worried about this match-up.
About the manabase : change to 17 lands done already.
About Needles :
That's where I'm a bit confused. It looks like you're contradicting yourself, first saying that they're only good against vial goblins, and then following up with
Which is a part I would mostly agree with. But ok, let's suppose I'm cutting the 3 Needles, what else could i put in these slots ? Spell Snare ? Repeal ?
About Threads/Control Magic :
I've switched to 17 lands now, and I have to admit that I don't like the idea of being forced to have this fourth land just for the case where the only effective target would be an Enforcer...
About affinity :
Good point with Serenity (plus, it's cheaper to cast and i like that against a deck that will try to chalice @ 1 every time it spots a thresh player, thus cutting me off of my cantrips). What would you sideboard out to make room for them in game 2 and 3 ? I'd be willing to remove the Counterbalances since lots of their cards have a high cc (while they're actually spending less do to the affinity mechanic).
Well... it's godly against Vial Goblins. I'm saying Needle is god against Goblins, and alright with everything else. I'm just saying, against other decks that isnt Vial Goblins, there could be a better card than Needle.
3rd Enforcer and 2 Counterspells.Which is a part I would mostly agree with. But ok, let's suppose I'm cutting the 3 Needles, what else could i put in these slots ? Spell Snare ? Repeal ?
Bad beats happen. I lost my spot for Top 2 before against Geddon Stax. Thing is, he would've won anyway, because he's a good player.
It's a semi-Needle effect against Goblins. It could easily be Needle, but I find Seal more flexible and less dead. Here's my boarding against Goblins...Ah, but anyways, what's the matter with those Seal of Primordium??? Are they somehow important? I'd rather play something else, do you really need that much Disenchant-effects?
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Mystic Enforcer
-1 SDT
-1 Predict
+2 Seal of Primordium
+2 Krosan Grip
+4 Hydroblast
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I have a question about this deck. Is it even worth building if you don't have access to Tarmogoyfs? I have everything else, I just can't justify the expense of the little green guys. I suppose if you were planning on taking this to a tournament that was going to be full of optimized tiered decks then the lack of Goyf would be a bad thing, but what if you were just going to a more casual sort of event. Would some combination of Werebears/Dryads, be acceptable?
That depends on what everyone else is playing. If no one else has Tarmogoyf, then you're on the exact same playing field as everyone else. If your opponents have him, you will find yourself outclassed most of the time. Dryad/Werebear is most certainly not Goyf, but if there aren't other ones around to contend with, they would do fine. Bear in mind that this deck was still a first tier deck before Tarmogoyf was printed, so it performs fine in a field without goyf. You're just going to have to work a lot harder to win some matches, e.g. Goblins.
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
If you don't have access to Tarmogoyfs, I strongly suggest to play one of the very controlish lists like mine or the Hatfield's.
In those lists, you are the one that plays control and therefore it doesn't really matter with what you eventually kill your opponent. Even though Tarmogoyf is way better to shift gears between being the control player and the agressor, I can see Werebear to be an okay replacement. He still beats for a fifth of your opponents life total and the mana ability actually comes in handy in the early game (Predict and Sensei's Divining Top being very mana intensive).
I could see you replacing the 4 Tarmogoyfs in my version with 3 Werebears and 1 Mystic Enforcer.
The one Mystic Enforcer comes in to compensate the lost agresiveness. He's not that great to stop an early rush/to go aggro early on, but in the lategame he is even better than the Goyf because of him being evasive and all... could work.
Tru Dat, QFT, and a simply amazing post.
Sure, you need Goyfs to shift gears, but I like Werebear more if you're beginning to pick up this deck. It teaches you what it needs to be a strong Control deck and the importance of playing Control in most match-ups. Until you get Goyfs, it makes everything better. I hope you start winning tournaments like dominoes and winning enough to get a set of Goyfs.
Goblins is obviously on the decline right now. I suggest cutting Needles for Shackles to make up for the lack of Goyfs in this deck. It's also a good 3c Spell to abuse Counterbalance with. So just run these alongside with Bears.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
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