I'd like to see your decklist, because from your description, it doesn't play anything remotely like my deck. Especially because you mention Deed. I can't play more than 2 colors by choice, because otherwise I irreparably screw my manabase. This deck isn't based around power, it's based around redundancy. Also, tutors? wtf?
Cunning Wish is nice and cute, and I used to have it in the deck, but ultimately I don't want a Wishboard, I want good cards. The deck already has tons and tons of mid-late game cards, Cunning Wish is just superfluous.
Vedalken Shackles is probably the weakest card in the deck, its main function is to act as a Crucible/Factory infinite blocker against generic aggro decks, and means they have to really overcommit their board if they want to get in damage against creatures. Also it creams Landstill, especially in conjuction with a Explosives at 0.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
I think I agree that 2 is too few to split 1/1. I'd pick Spell Snare over Stifle in a blind metagame, personally. The only time you'll really truly regret that Snare being a Stifle is if you're facing Land Destruction of any sort. Even against Storm Combo, Snare's going to hit -something-, be it a mana producer, a Wish/Tutor, or an Abeyance.Originally Posted by Berzerked
I was actually contemplating screwing around with Repeal until Gaddock Teeg started sprouting up everywhere, much to my annoyance. Still, Repeal is an interesting card. I haven't wanted it nearly as much since I started running Explosives as a permanent staple to back up Deed, though.My experience with playing Repeal in various other control decks is that it offers a cheap way to manipulate the field - cheap enough that I can go on the offensive turns earlier with a small back-up - while being versitile enough that I can delay them winning/progressing a turn (while cantripping into gas), and I can bounce random annoyances like Vial.
@Slay - I was just mentioning that I had tested Shackles in Landstill before, in a Tutor package including Deed, Explosives, and Humility. I was suggesting a possible explination for why I thought Shackles was underwhelming by stating that compared to Humilty and Deed, I tutored for it less, and it was clunky when I drew it anyway.
The list I currently play is posted a couple of pages back, but believe me, it is very similar with -Shackles +Wish.
Let me explain Wish - It's amazing. As early as turn 4 you can Extirpare key cards that you countered in early turns. This is incredibly relevant in alot of matchups. It let's you play the rest of the game unhindered by that card, which opens up many plays and focuses your answers on other things.
I usually find that I can control the first 4-5 turns pretty effectively, but sometimes that means running pretty low on gas. Wish->FoF is a great play.
Wish->Demise has saved me on turn4 from a Magus of the Moon. Wish->Pulse is your best chance game1 against Sligh. Some of this stuff sounds situational, but it's the fact that 1 card can do all this - at instant speed - and that we can support its cost, that makes Wish so great.
3 games of testing with Repeal and each game it got pitched to Force when I was heavily pressured...Atleast it's equally as useless as Stifle so far.
I agree with Berzerked that you can play with 23 land, but the colorless mana sources really have a bad effect on your manabase. You play 9 colorless sources. I wouldn't play more than 7 with 23 lands. In my own build (which is UWb) i play exactly 7, but I really consider turning 1 Wasteland to Hallowed Fountain/Island, because the manascrew screws your whole game.
I also find Cunning Wish a really good card, and wouldn't play Shackles over it. Isn't that a little bit overkill to have recurring EE's and Shackles (+ the other removal + there are also more removal on the sideboard)? You don't have to dedicate all of your sideboard to wish targets, I only have ~5 targets on SB and there I can get an answer to almost any situation. But the most effective use of Wish comes from black splash (Extirpate FTW) but guess those black targets could be replaced by something white/blue. Ghastly Demise -> Condemn/StoP. Extirpate -> ??? I can't come up with anything effective (yet).
I play 24 lands, dude. 23 lands is way too little.
And Cunning Wish is nice, I agree. I had it in the deck at one point, which you should know if you bothered to read my post(why does no one do this?). The point of Shackles is that it singlehandedly wins the game against Aggro-control and Landstill. So you can get Extirpate with Cunning Wish. Hoopty damn doo. Or Ghastly Demise. All those things do is stall until I can get my engine set up. Why would I want to stall when I can win the game on the spot, against some decks? My deck is about card advantage, and the only way Wish can generate card advantage is if it finds Pulse against a burn deck or Fact or Fiction. Cunning Wish is an extremely uninteresting card against an aggro-control/control meta, which is what I built the deck to beat, as it was what I saw in CT. If your meta has a lot of Goblins, burn, or graveyard combo, by all means, play Cunning Wish. But it's probably the wrong card for the metagame currently.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Please let me know where someone said anything about you not having previously tested out Wish. In fact, before you mentioned playing Wish, I had already stated that I was pretty sure you had tested it because our lists are so similar.
Sure, dude, you can just sit back and say 23 is too little, and I'll stick with my testing that 23+2 Dragon has never failed me once. I wasn't questioning your choice of 24, but please don't tell me 23 is too little.
I still fail to see where Shackles is an auto-win in any matchup. Against Control, I'd ask myself why would I want to tap out on my turn to try and resolve a card that is probably not relevant at the time, and most likely won't survive to do anything, when I can make them tap out to counter my Wish on their turn, and if they don't I grab a FoF to officially gain the upper hand. I think you forget that Landstill also runs removal for Shackles, and it's easier for them to do than waste a counter on my Wish->Extirpate->Sorry no more FoW/Factory/whatever. Against Thresh, Mongoose trumps Shackles, and good luck nabbing a Goyf before it kills you, with your high non-Island count. Oh ya, and there's always Needle to ruin your day.
Also, I don't see why you are scoffing at Extirpate. One of my biggest problems with Combo used to be stopping them in the first couple of turns at the expense of my hand, only to see them combo out later when I couldn't apply enough pressure/find enough answers in time. Extirpate fixes this and the fact that it is Split Second is incredibly relevant - people tend not to counter the Wish. This might not be actual card advantage, but that's cool with me because card advantage doesn't matter when I've already sealed the game up. In games where I do need card advantage, you said it, Wish->FoF is where it's at.
Just so this doesn't turn into a huge argument based on personal bias, though, I'm going to test Shackles + 1 land in place of Wish and see how it goes.
Against Landstill, Shackles means they can no longer attack with manlands, or I can steal them and not give them back. That kind of tempo gain is astoundingly powerful considering it means I get to apply pressure and they don't. I base this assertion not on pure theory, because I thought it would be terrible in the Landstill matchup, but on testing, where I whomped on another Landstill player at TMLO3 simply because he couldn't hurt me with Factories, and my deck beat his deck in the late game. Against Aggro-control, a resolved Shackles means they have to beat down with Nimble Mongooses, or I'll steal their creatures. Again, it stalls into the late game where I get my recursion engine set up, and win the game.
I think Extirpate is an awesome card. The problem with it is that it doesn't contribute to a winning game position, except later on. Extirpate does not kill creatures, and it does not solve the problem that this deck has, which is being overwhelmed in the early game due to bad mana and a slow deck. Having a 3cc tutor is exactly what my deck(note MY deck, not, say, Geoff's deck) does not need, it needs something which gives results quicker.
24 lands + 2 Dragons is the bare minimum when playing so many nonblue lands. Don't add Shackles unless you play Academy Ruins already, Shackles strength is that it's recurring creature kill, but it's only recurring if you can hang onto it by means of Academy Ruins. Otherwise it's less than par.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Note: EE cannot destroy manlands. It blows up "nonlands".
It kills their Decree tokens.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Despite that I agree that Shackles is decent against Landstill (Illissius creamed me with it back when in the Source Tourney in a Landstill mirror), you do have to give the Manland back should you choose to untap the Shackles.
Annoying cards like Shackles are why I MD a pair of Krosan Grips. I can't count the number of times G1 where I've sent some bullshit artifact like Needle, Shackles or Chalice packing.
This may have been asked or suggested, but has someone tried a UGb list with MD Garruk? I mean, he essentially costs 2 because of his ability to untap, so playing him turn 4, untap 2, and that leaves you able to counterspell. It would allow the deck to tap out and play stuff like Fact or Fictions and then be a strong win condition late game. If you think about it this way, he makes every spell cost 2 less. Not bad. Playable?
I agree with these statements. I only play 23 land because I only run 7 colorless producing lands. If I was to include either another Wasteland or something like Academy Ruins I would cut a spell rather than another land or even dare I say, go to a 61 card deck. Shackles is a useful card but Academy Ruins is where the real strength is coming from. Any Landstill build running Crucible and Ruins should have more than a small advantage in the mirror. Personally when I was testing out Ruins, I ran 1 Ruins and 1 Tolaria West. It may seem alittle janky but it worked out fairly well. On top of being the tutor for Ruins it could fetch out a Wasteland, Factory, EE or even the Tormod's Crypt after boarding.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
looking at this, I think that Jace might have a home in this deck? If you can craft your hand so it holds a really really strong hand of control elements under a Standstill and then get the Standstill cards, you should come out fairly far ahead, even if you both have 7 cards. Thoughts?
Jace could work as an excellent SB card for the mirror. I wouldn't bother with it MD. Pretty much the only way to remove it in the mirror is via EE (not even Deed kills it), and I'm not sure but EE might be one of those cards sideboarded out in the mirror.
Ah, I thought you were talking about the 4c Landstill mirror match (4c usually doesn't run Decree, right?).
It tends not to, as Monastery makes requiring an alternative threat less necessary, and opens up the slot to to probably more creature kill (Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood).
I've been running a single decree in 4c Landstill for a while now, and I'm far from dropping it for more removal. It's especially relevant in the face of extirpate and the mirror match, both of which are becoming more common in my area. However, I'm pretty sure you'd need to go to 24 lands to run decree, just to ensure you don't tap out to make two soldiers.
I've also been doing testing with eight pinpoint removal spells (to complement the 4 deeds), four of which are swords. The other spells, which are black, are kinda tricky. I don't quite know which I like best, so right now I'm running a 1-1-1-1 split of I-blood, edict, smother, and G-demise. As horrid as it sounds, I'm actually liking it. Although I think shriekmaw deserves a try as soon as I get a hold on a few.
I've been testing shriekmaw lately. I'm very unhappy with him in the deck. He has lost me many games because he can't kill artifact or black creatures. Most of the time I would rather have an instant speed edict. He also dies to just about anything.
Okay, I've been messing around the Taco's list above and think it is quite awesome. I do, however, have some questions and observations about the deck.
1. Is the lack of Shackles and Crucible in the deck a matter of not running non-land permanents that don't blow themselves up? Or are they not pulling their weight/too slow?
2. We've been over this before, but is LFTL really better than a singleton Crucible?
3. Re: the mirror. It comes down to Crucible/Wasteland/ land advantage. Without Wasteland and Crucible, how does the deck beat Waste-lock? LFTL is much more mana intensive than Crucible, for instance; you also need green mana on the board, unlike Crucible, which can be played off any three lands.
4. 4x Meddling Magi in the sideboard. Are they needed? Could they be something better, like Duress?
5. Has anyone else tested Shriekmaw over Edict? How'd it go?
6. Basic Island over a Tundra? (You only have 4 white spells in the maindeck, not including the Monastery activation cost)
7. Tarmogoyfs in the board?
1. The lack of Shackles is a combination of the two. I don't find that I ever die to a relentless horde of creatures unless something else gave me problems Shackles wouldn't fix (Usually manabase disruption.) The lack of Crucible is simply because Loam is better than Crucible if you don't run Wasteland, not to mention that Deed blows it up.
2. Yep. As an example, in my most recent tournament report against Pox, I drew Loam both times with exactly two land in play, and both games my opponent was holding a Vindicate at the time I drew it. If Loam were Crucible, I'd have gone 0-2 in this matchup. Instead, I went 2-0. It's also worth noting that in one of the earlier matches, I forget which, I had only two lands and a Loam in hand, and I stabilized my manabse by Loaming a fetchland. It's also worth noting that the Quagnoth in my board has since reverted to being Loam #2 due to ridiculous numbers of Wastelands in my metagame.
3. It doesn't. 4C Landstill completely dies in the mirror regardless of efforts and therefore I don't dedicate any slots to trying to win it. It makes up for it by having a better match against any deck that isn't relying on sneaky lands as a major part of its winning strategy.
4. They're needed. They serve as additional kill conditions and a solid clock versus combo. Both games I won against Belcher I won by playing 2-3 Mages, which served not only to shut off Goblin Charbelcher but to deter me from being beaten to death by Wild Cantors, which almost happened.
5. I'm not anyone else, so I have no idea. This is a tough call, though. Edict is instant speed and handles insanely annoying random shit like Troll Ascetic (That guy is -so- hard to get rid of) and Argothian Enchantress, as well as taking care of opposing manlands, haste guys, and shit like Stromgald Crusader, where Shriekmaw can't. Shriekmaw, on the other hand, can actually kill someone, which is huge. I think I still pick Edict for now, though I reserve the right to change my mind.
6. I also have Mages in the board, but I ask you, to what end? What is that basic Island going to do for me? I have Stifle for random rogue Wasteland, and Island won't help me against Port, which I fear even more. That one Island won't be enough for me to get rid of a Back to Basics, or a Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon except via Blue Elemental Blast, which I can do to counter the thing anyway, and even in the case that it did get down, I'd have to actually -have- the basic Island.
It would give me the option to blindly fetch a basic island against a random deck, granted, but if I did, I'd still be missing a whopping three colors, which is unacceptable at that point.
Ideally, I want Swords to be castable on turn one, and Deed to be castable on turn three. In order to meet both of these conditions, I have to lead with a Tundra, then follow with Tropical/Sea in some order, so there's no way a basic Island can be played without introducing some nonblue dual alongside it.
7. I'm thinking about it. I'd reaaaally like to be able to sneak those buggers in. However, the competition in the sideboard is stiff. Lack of Plagues means scooping to Goblins and probably Ichorid/Cephalid Breakfast as well. Blue Elemental Blast saves me against Goyf Sligh, Goblins, and tons of other things. Mage is far better than Goyf in this sideboard, and Extirpate is the only thing that gives me a shot against Loam and Ichorid and is awesome against most control and a lot of combo. It's also my best method for dealing with opponents' Extirpates.
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