[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Ataxrxes]

So maybe something like this then?

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Predict
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
4 StP
4 Nimble Moongoose
3 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

I'm not too sure about the mana. Does that look like a good list to play around with and get a feel for the deck?

[Nihil Credo]

I'd say -1 Mystic Enforcer (expensive dude), -1 Daze (you're playing control here), +1 Werebear, +1 to taste (Pithing Needle or Engineered Explosives come to mind).

For the manabase, unless there's a real fear of Extirpate-> Tropical Island (but even then, you can win with something stolen via Shackles), I'd focus more on consistently getting blue mana... especially because of your MD Counterbalances and Shackles. That means -1 Forest, -2 Heath, +1 Island, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Polluted Delta.

[Adan]

-1 Daze (you're playing control here)

HELL NO!!!111oneoneone

Always play 4 Daze, no matter what, it's a incredible stong card in the early- and mid-game and pitches to Force in the lategame.
I would rather suggest something like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LOR] Hoofprints of the Stag
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

The third Enforcer is dependant on how aggressive you want to play, but 2 are usually enough.
Hoofprints of the Stag is a card I absolutley fall in love with since it sometimes wins games by itself since you never run out of critters while you are chaining cantrips to find counterbackup or even more critters.

[Nydaeli]

If you don't have access to Goyf, that means you can run Meddling Mage and name Goyf with it. Which is a strong play against like half the format.

[Citrus-God]

1. Never cut Dazes. Daze is how you consistently force down Counterbalance Turn 2 with protection, not to mention that the format is faster now.

2. Run 3 Enforcers. They are simply amazing. They're one of the best reasons to play White.

3. Hoofprints of Staag is super techy. Try it.

[Adan]

1. Never cut Dazes. Daze is how you consistently force down Counterbalance Turn 2 with protection, not to mention that the format is faster now.

2. Run 3 Enforcers. They are simply amazing. They're one of the best reasons to play White.

3. Hoofprints of Staag is super techy. Try it.

Yeah, as I said, I'M RIGHT!
But today I'll still play my build I posted before, I'll give you a report then.
But I have to look, maybe I'll play URG.

[raudo]

So what is the current "best" build without counterbalances?
I have been playing with something like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
1 Forest

// Creatures
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant

[ebbitten]

Meddling mage simply is not strong enough for MD anymore, Werebear, Quirion dryad or even Gaddock seeems like they would all be better choices.

[raudo]

Does Gaddock Teeg work well with Forces of Will? I really have liked Meddling Mages, but maybe 2 of them can go for extra Daze and Mystic Enforcer. Do you all agree that counterbalance build is better?

[Adan]

Ok, I played on our monthly tourney. We were 33 people, 6 rounds of swiss.

I went 5-1-0 with NQGw and so I played 3rd, the build was the following:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt


I won against: Boros Deck Wins, Pox, Countersliver, Baseruption and the Mirrormatch (my opponent netdecked my list from Herxheim, so it was exactly the same maindeck, but a older sideboard).

I lost in Round 3 against such a strange UW Controldeck with a shitload of basiclands and Back to Basics in the Sideboard.

And now guess what it means that I've won against Baseruption and the Mirror, who both had Counterbalance out? I made pressure and that was the thing that won me the game. I also boardet the engine out to have Jotun Grunts, Grips and Meddling Mages.

Pithing Needles are were so insane, they were just the right metacall.

[Jiaozy]

Am I missing something or am I the only one not to understand why Predict is always a 4of?
Costing 2 makes it worse than any cantrip in the deck and it always feels clunky...Am I misplaying it?

When do you usually Predict and for which reason (putting the Top in the yard for Goyf, "countering" a tutor from your opponent, whatever) or it's simply a filter + thresh enabler + CA engine?

I understand it's all in one card, but I always felt like they clogged up my hand while playing with Top because I usually needed the mana to spin it or play something...

[Elf_Ascetic]

Am I missing something or am I the only one not to understand why Predict is always a 4of?
Costing 2 makes it worse than any cantrip in the deck and it always feels clunky...Am I misplaying it?

When do you usually Predict and for which reason (putting the Top in the yard for Goyf, "countering" a tutor from your opponent, whatever) or it's simply a filter + thresh enabler + CA engine?

I understand it's all in one card, but I always felt like they clogged up my hand while playing with Top because I usually needed the mana to spin it or play something...

It's a card that says:
Don't lose a turn by drawing that (see below) bad card.
Get ********
Pump goyf by 1 or 2
Draw 2 cards.
I'm an instant
I can be pitched to FOW.

There's nothing bad there.

I use it mainly for dumping bad cards, and auto-included CA. Drawing a second top, second counterbalance or fifth land is really bad. With predict you improve your cardquality a lot.

[Adan]

Am I missing something or am I the only one not to understand why Predict is always a 4of?
Costing 2 makes it worse than any cantrip in the deck and it always feels clunky...Am I misplaying it?

When do you usually Predict and for which reason (putting the Top in the yard for Goyf, "countering" a tutor from your opponent, whatever) or it's simply a filter + thresh enabler + CA engine?

I understand it's all in one card, but I always felt like they clogged up my hand while playing with Top because I usually needed the mana to spin it or play something...

Predict is the 100 times better Mental Note. You usually have enough CQ to name the right card, so Predict will mill 1 and get 2 into your hand.
It also has got some synergies with Sensei's Divining Top (but actually even a dumbass can figure that out I think). It also mills away a Top in the earlygame. Ok, the Top is then not good, but it's also not bad and won't disturb you (and it boosts Goyf ;-P )

Mental Note mills 2 and gets you 1 card into your hand. so in the end, Predict does the same thing like Mental Note, except that there will be 1 additional card that will be in your hand that cantrips (then we have the same effect like Mental Note) or a critter.

But, that's all blah, Predict generates Cardadvtantage and so it also allows you to chain into other cantrips or finding solutions. Mental Notes mills 2 blind cards and then cantrips. But it doesn't generate Cardquality and is also very very bad in chaining into other cantrips.

And now that we have got Tarmogoyf, you are more independant from Threshold. That's the reason why I wouldn't play Mental Note anymore, no matter which Type of NQG you play. With Tarmogoyf, there's no rush to get 7 cards into your graveyard.

So please everyone, stop playing that awful card Mental Note!

[raharu]

Mental note = turn 2 thresh (sometimes, more than not turn three). Mental Note is for agressive thresh, not control Thresh. Control Thresh needs CA, not agressive thresh. If you want CA, you better make room for the old school Accumulated Knowledge, and you better run it as a four of.

[throst54]

Mental Notes mills 2 blind cards and then cantrips. But it doesn't generate Cardquality and is also very very bad in chaining into other cantrips.

Predict is just as blind as Mental Note is. Neither card generates card quality w/o the help of another card.

Both cards have thier advantages, Note is nice because it can really help you out when you get stuck w/ 2 unneeded cards stuck on top of your library (with either brainstorm or top). It really is just up to your preference and playstyle.

[Adan]

Predict is just as blind as Mental Note is. Neither card generates card quality w/o the help of another card.

Both cards have thier advantages, Note is nice because it can really help you out when you get stuck w/ 2 unneeded cards stuck on top of your library (with either brainstorm or top). It really is just up to your preference and playstyle.

That's wrong I think. mental Note neither generares Cardquality nor cardadvantage, even with the help of other Cantrips.
Predict generates Cardadvantage with the Help of another card. And as I explained, one of those cards is possibly a cantrip, so you play it and then have also 2 more cards on your graveyard and Predict itself.
So you have the same effect as Mental Note except that you have spent a little more mana, but you also gaines cardquality.

The aggressive Thresh argument is non-sense as long as we are talking about UGW, because UGW has established itself with the Build Anti, Der_imaginäre_Freund and Me plays, and that's a control-oriented one with Counterbalance. Mental Note was good in the past, but nowadays we have less threshold-dependant creatures. That's the reason not to run Mental Note. also believe that UGW is less aggressive than UGR, but Mental Note sucks anyways.

Of you want to play aggressive Thresh, play UGR Birdshit-Style like that Dave Caplan (is it goobafish here?) or the "german one" I talked about.

[klaus]

- MENTAL NOTE VS. PREDICT -

Alright, I believe most relevant pros and cons have been touched upon already. Anyway, I'd like to talk a bit more about some aspects in more detail.

First off, Mental Note is not a bad choice, even in UGW builds - Here are some additional pros:
Note can serve as an unexpected Mongoose boost turn 2 - I have done this multiple times before.
Further More, it doesn't get dazed as often, it never gets Spell Snared, ever, and it it always does its job.

In Counter-Top builds I'd definitely run Predict over Note, though not as a 4-of rather as a 3-of - for in the early game predict is like a really bad Mental Note - costing one more, milling one less = sucks. The farther the game approaches the better it becomes obviously.

[Adan]

- MENTAL NOTE VS. PREDICT -

Alright, I believe most relevant pros and cons have been touched upon already. Anyway, I'd like to talk a bit more about some aspects in more detail.

First off, Mental Note is not a bad choice, even in UGW builds - Here are some additional pros:
Note can serve as an unexpected Mongoose boost turn 2 - I have done this multiple times before.
Further More, it doesn't get dazed as often, it never gets Spell Snared, ever, and it it always does its job.

In Counter-Top builds I'd definitely run Predict over Note, though not as a 4-of rather as a 3-of - for in the early game predict is like a really bad Mental Note - costing one more, milling one less = sucks. The farther the game approaches the better it becomes obviously.

Which reson do you have to daze/spell snare Predict? Ah, I see, to make way for Mystic Enforcer, Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance and Worship! Nice play!!!

The surprising pump-effect on Nimble Mongoose is not enough to justify the usage of Mental Note in Thresh. And 2nd Turn Threshold, HOW???

1st Turn Fetch, Mongoose. 1 card in the GY.
2nd Turn Fetch, Brainstorm, Note (or something like that). 6 Cards in the graveyard.

So getting Threshold yould only be possible if you got Force of Will (Daze would slow you down for 1 Turn and on the 2nd Turn, there's nothing to counter for the opponent).
The odds for such a hand are extremely little. But even IF you have such a utopic start, you would be out-of-gas afterwards. If your opponents then plays Wall of Blossoms or whatsoever, you are f*cked.

Mental Note is a card that has lost it's right to exist in Threshold since Tarmogoyf was printed, because there's no more the need to get Threshold early. Against a lot of decks, a 1st Turn Mongoose already does a lot of pressure. Tarmogoyf can also do so, with solid stats (3/4 average in the early game).

[Kyachi]

???

1st Turn Fetch, Mongoose. 1 card in the GY.
2nd Turn Land,Note, Note (or something like that). 7 Cards in the graveyard.

But even still, rather underwhelming...

[Adan]

But even still, rather underwhelming...

It's also a very bad play if you do it liek that because you don't generate Cardadvantage and probably decrease your actual answers or critters by milling them away.
And the odds for having such a utopic starthand are little.

The thing is, that Mental Note is a cantrip that doesn't fullfill the requirements to be played in NQG: You want to generate Cardquality, have influence on your draw and find answers or critters to make pressure, all dependant from the role you have to play. Ok, maybe Mental Note gives you accelerated Theshold to gain some speedadvantage, but Predict offers you - in general - 2 potential new threats. And that's more important than accelerating Threshold, milling away thos potential threats.

In the past Mental Note was good, where you still had 10 or 11 Threshold-dependant creatures and had to play Mental Note to deliver some serious beatz, but nowadays, Tarmogoyf can be more of a clock. And he's independant. A 1st Turn mongoose itself can already do enough pressure and Theshold can also be reached very fast, it's just dependant on how you play the cantrips.
And if you play them properly, Predict is smooth, because it then generates cardadvantage. And CA is better than CQ, so it's twice better than Mental Note, because the Note neither generates CQ nor CA.