Deed is the bane of this deck... Everytime it hits the board it is a reflex for me to think: "Shit". This deck runs threats at 1, 2, and 3 and those are the numbers your going to be cracking deed at. Deed isnt good in this deck because often you will destroy just as many of your cards(or more) then your opponent.
Call me Ishmael
My thoughts exactly on Deed; your threats are mostly 3cc and less, which is what you'd typically be cracking Deed for. No good in this deck.
Eternal Witness is 1GG, so the manabase would have to altered to fit that. Also, why? It's cute, but doesn't profoundly alter the deck like...
Goyf. 1G. Splashable and manageable with just 4 Bayou. Is a house whenever he hits the table, and fits into pretty much any deck with creatures as kill condition. I'd say 4 Bayou for 4 Goyf is a good addition, and whoever said Naturalize/Krosan Grip in Sideboard is right, imo. The bane of mono-black has been lack of enchantment, and to a slightly lesser extent, artifact removal. Krosan Grip gives you that ability to deal with pesky enchantments that normally you'd have to rely on pro-active disruption to deal with. I like the green splash, but only for Goyf, nothing else (and Krosan Grip in SB).
To be fair, the pro probably did not steal any of our lists. Its looks more likely that he saw Bill Starks list and adapted it to fit Tarmogofy. I kinda like how he keep the discard package strong without throwing any green pump. Not sure its the right call, but it feels right to me. I second the opinion of throwing some Hyppies in here, but he is no longer the auto include he once was. That discard package as is will lead to lots of dead cards latter on, and probably gets the job done as is. Hyppie needs some mox to power him out faster or you just lay him down a tad slow. In this kinda of build, I would rather find a place for Gator but maybe that is because I am one biased mofo.Originally Posted by Versus
Now would mox builds want Tarmogoyf? It is kinda crappy to lay him down turn 1. I suppose that is largely irrelevant as you can drop your first threat than him later. I don't know, logic and reason usually fails when it comes to Goyf. Perhaps he would work just find, because he is a stupid and broken creature.
It weakens some of the sideboard cards that are the best for this build. Dystopia and Planar void. You can't use them because they have bad synergy with tarmogoyf. I agree with adding krosan grip to SB, its great enchantment and artifact removal.
Edit: My bad, I thought Deeds was "equal to" not equal to AND less.
Teacup: Concerning Moxes and Goyf and using that list, what would you possible imprint but another Goyf? That's not too efficient.
Last edited by Versus; 12-11-2007 at 03:34 PM.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
No you probably would not imprint it with a Gofy you silly. Like I said, its not as hot in Gofy builds but its still nice to lay down first hymn or something. This deck is rather redundant with its discard so pitching to the mox for acceleration is usually a reasonable play. Its mostly for builds that want to have their turn three plays become a turn 2. No Gator No hyppie means no mox.
I still think moxes have place in the deck. Even with the green splash.
Sure, tarmogoyf sux t1, but being able to discard+2/2, hymn, or cast confidant t1 is awesome. With 20x1cc and 20x2cc I think it's worth.
I'm considering going 2x Rancor 2x Jitte's. I just keep drawing 2, 3 jittes some games. Maybe even go 4x Rancor.
Rancxor would be a good addition for the BG-build. But the build is more wastelands vunerable. and you'll lose some precious sideboard cards like Dystopia and planar void who have very bad synergy with tarmogoyf.
Dunno about the chrome moxes this deck needs every threat you can get in hand. Losing one of your threats to a chrome mox can be a pain to deal with but maybe not. Can't really say something about it haven't tested it yet
Actually, Rancor could help you keep Dystopia in the side, even if you run Goyfs. You end up payingper turn to avoid sacrificing your green creature.
Wow... the beauty of mono-colored Sui deck is being overtaken with Goyf. So janky. MUC will start splashing green for Goyf pretty soon too.
I guess this is the natural evolution of the deck now. I say just splash green for Goyf. Jitte is enough pump, and doesn't require a creature in order to cast it. Also, what would you cut for Rancor?
indeed, P. Deedy would call for a slightly different playstyle than sui black. more like Rockguy; disrupt, clean board, then drop a big creature while the opponent is offset on tempo.
You'd cut Jitte. Being legendary, I don't wanna get dead cards drawing 2 or 3s.
Or instead of cutting Jitte, you play Wild Mongrel* also, who pitches dead Jittes and has insane synergy with Tarmogoyf for his ability to pump it / bluff the pump.
Goyf, Mongrel, and Shade all in the same deck is a lot of pumpable beatdown.
*You know. The Guy who used to be the best green beater in Magic.
Interesting idea. I suppose Mongrel is better than the other choices perhaps with the exception of Gator. I remember Mongrel fondly back in the day when Madness ruled... It is worthy of play testing as Sui tends to have lots of dead discard in hand latter on. He was more fun when smother was still considered sub optimal and people were unable to kill him with terror like effects and burn. Good times good times.
According to the search function, this issue was never really discussed properly: MD Extirpate as a useful addition of a hybrid LD/hand destruction strategy.
I'm thinking about running at least 8 discard spells (Thoughtseize + X, where X can be Duress or Hymn (which would have better synergy with the LD theme)), 4 Sinkhole and 3-4 Wastelands. The benefits of extirpating discarded/used key cards doesn't need to be explained. But what uses can Extirpate have in terms of LD?
Besides removing used fetchlands to thin out lands from your manascrewed opponent's library (which is a really meh play unless you know your opponent holds another copy of the fetchland in his hand), you can also use your LD to destroy a key land (Manlands, duals) and then extirpate it. This way, your opponent is unable to replace it with another copy for the rest of the game which further strengthens your LD plan. Throw in some Needles from the board (which would be an alternative to Extirpate in terms of MD mana denial in a fetchland-heavy meta) to increase the effectiveness of the strategy.
I would like to hear your opinions on this topic, considering many lists pack Extirpate at least in the board, sometimes even with MD LD. Note that the potential card disadvantage of Extirpate is not the main topic in this discussion (that was already covered before), but rather how devestating the combination of LD with flexible pseudo-LD can be.
Extirpate can be used to kill your opponents dual lands. I like to try him out in SB, dunno if you also can use it maindeck. I have kept my tradiotional SB for a tourney:
4x Dystopia
4x Engineered Plague
4x Planar void,
3x Powder keg/pithing needle/ engineered plagues/ extirpate
what would you think would best fit in the last spot in a meta full of thresh solidarity/hightide, belcher and goblins ?
Why Planar over LotV in the SB, especially since you're running 4x (and I assume you board in all 4)?
Also, to deal with Goyf, what do we use as primary spot removal? Shriekmaw?
It depends on your build, but the most accepted choices seem to be Smother, Edict, and Snuff Out, or some combination of those. I'm testing 4 smother and 2 Edict as removal right now. If you run Thoughtsieze, that could also be considered Goyf removal I suppose.
planar void is better in this deck it costs only one and you don't need your own graveyard if you don't use graveyard recursion cards. Leyline costs 4 and you don't have them always in your hand turn 1. And yu can't mulligan till you have him.
I've played MD extirpate in Bwg RockGuy and have been really impressed with it.
Turn1 Duress/ThoughSeize to get rid of an hypothetical Stifle, then Turn2 Wasteland+Extirpate is devastating vs Thresh, especially in 3c builds, especially on Trop.Island.
This kind of play on early Tundras even win me some games vs 3cFish.
Still, depending of the local metagame (No Breakfast//Ichorid, few 3cThresh//Fish builds) the MD slots could serve otherwise, still I'll always have 3 Exirpate in my SB.
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