[Deck] Ichorid

[Brehn]

I've tested the Dragon Stompy matchup heavily and it's bad, even preboard. You definitely need an explosive hand and be lucky that he doesn't play a turn 1 Trinisphere / Chalice set on the right value to slow you down significantly. There's no such thing as slowrolling when you're facing a turn 2 Arc-Slogger followed up by Jitte. And, believe it or not, Magus of the Moon can screw the hell out of you. If you want to win vs DS:
1) Keep a hand that can win undisruptedly on turn 3.
2) Hope for mulligans of your opp.
3) Play Cephalid Sage.

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok, I gonna test that matchup many times this week :).

And what do you guys think of this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [US] Gamble

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

There's one slot, should I play one more Gamble, one more DReturn, or 1 more PImp?

Mvg

[Dr.Kokusho]

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

[ClearSkies]

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

Since gamble was bad, why even play with Mystical Tutors?
Pithing Needle in play solves Tormod Crypt problems as long as it stays in play. Mystical Tutor does not. Chain of Vapors only forces them to use it or stall it for a turn.

I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

Like Pithing Needle? That is one mana and is a really powerful hoser against certain kinds of stuff. (Crypt, Deed)

Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

However, this is a combo deck. When given the opportunity, it wants to try to win as fast as possible right? Not to mention that when you start dredging, it is hard to dig up some lands.

[Dr.Kokusho]

Maybe its best that before I suggest card additions to the deck that I first share my views on the ichorid deck as a whole so that the framework of reasoning behind my card choices can be better understood or that corrections can be made to the misconceptions that other people and I have about the deck.

Legacy Ichorid Combo - A deck that aims to win by filling the graveyard with cards and abusing massive card advantage provided by cards that function in the graveyard to achieve victory.

I would like to define a term which I would be using frequently which we'll call "going off". This means successfully resolving a draw 3 or 4 spell that would enable a chain of undisrupted dredges that result in a lot of cards in the graveyard.

When you "go off" successfully the opponent usually dies due to hasted zombies or they will just lose since they will often experience a combination of multiple zombie tokens, a reanimated fatty, multiple discards, and reccuring ichorids that produce more zombies which would overwhelm most decks' resources to fight back.

With this in mind my mindset when playing the deck is to "go off" as fast as possible. In my experience once you go off you generally win, barring misplays (not using cabal therapies to get rid of opponents answers) or lucky topdecks (such as a topdecked solitary confinement)

Other combo decks also apply this strategy since they "go off" in their own ways to win the game but there are many advantages to the ichorid combo that other combo decks do not.

1. It regularly goes off on turn 1 and 2 allowing us to bypass intaractions forced by many decks. This means the combo can only be disrupted in turn 1 by FOW. Turn 2 is more disruptable since it is vulnerable to daze, trini, COtV, Wasteland Etc, but if the opponents do not have them they lose. If they do you do still have a chance to "go off".

2. Ichorid requires 4 pieces to go off, namely a draw spell, a mana source, a discard outlet and a dredger. Fortunately many of the pieces fulfill multiple roles (such as colliseum being both an outlet, a mana source and a draw; careful being a draw or outlet; and LED which is an outlet and a mana source) leading to less mulligans and less reliance on tutors to find pieces.

3. Ichorid has a very good aggro back up plan against counter based control if ever they prevent us from "going off" which comes in the form of ichorid, Pimp and zombie token beatdown.

Because of these reasons it is very likely that the ichorid player will win game 1

Now assuming we win game 1, we come to the much more difficult game 2. Here we lose the advantage of non-interactivity since the the opponent gets to play first and more importantly starts boarding in graveyard hate. Due to this the ichorid deck's plan changes a bit. Though the plan is still to "win as fast as possible" , it is more accurately described as " get rid of hate then go-off" which is a lot more difficult to do.

This is because when graveyard hate hits play, we essentially need to have 5 things in our hand to "go off" and these are a mana source, a dredger, a draw spell, a discard outlet , and the anti-hate we board in. Also unlike the other pieces which can serve multiple purposes, anti-hate only functons as anti-hate which does not help us "go off" when there is no graveyard hate in play.

Now assuming that we draw those 5 on the opening 8 cards then all is well and good but more often than not one or two pieces are missing and therefore the deck will have to draw a few more cards before effectively "going off" which often leads to longer games and a much more dificult fight.

This is why I thought of using mystical tutors in game 2 since they can function as anti-hate, draw or discard outlet depending on what you tutor for. Using tutors also allows us to board out spells that are dead with graveyard hate in play such as 2 breakthroughs while not diluting the dredge engine since the tutors can get echoing truth, chain of vapor or they can act as breakthroughs 3-6 though it may be delayed by a turn. Gamble also plays this role as well and in fact sometimes it is better since it can get any of the pieces required to "go off" and puts it in the hand instead of going to the top of the library. However gamble is indeed a gamble due to the random discard. For people who want consistency over power, mystical tutor is a better choice.

Some might say that bouncing a crypt is a temporary solution and I find that this is not so. The bounce usually happens at the end of the turn before going off. Now assuming the crypt is bounced and you "go off" the next turn then the crypt will no longer be a threat since it would be cabal therapied. If your opponent did not have resources stopping the vapor and you"going off" then it is extremely likely he has no way to stop you from making him discard the crypts allowing you to use the graveyard resources without fear (barring a topdecked crypt of course). There are exceptions of course where needle is much better such as multiple tormods in play but I give more likely siutations higher consideration than the exceptional ones.

I also think it would be best not to side in pithings game 2 unless fighting combo since I am unsure if my opponent will side in leylines or the crypt. Id rather have the more versatile chain since it can be tutored and it can handle both types of hate. You might say that I can needle many other useful things apart from crypt such as wasteland, etc. but my playstyle would rather maximize my chances of "going off" rather than disrupting the opponents strategy . Game 3 is a different story since the hate has been identified and I have a better idea of what to pithing since I have been beaten and I know what cards apart from crypt that need to be shut down since they caused my defeat.

In some game 3s i bring the anti-hate back out and just hope fora turn 1 undisruptable kill on the play. This strategy can pay off in non-leyline using decks or if you are tired and do not want to play a long complicated game.

My final and most controversial opinion for others is the addition of rainbowlands or non-land mana producing spells such as lotus petals and chrome moxen in the sb. Now in my experience with the deck, game 3 usually becomes a mulligan fest for the opposing deck. If they won game 2 then it was probably due to the presence of hate. That is why they will often mulligan to hate even if the rest of his cards are crap such as a sui black player mulliganning to leyline and 2 wastelands with many black creatures or a goblin deck mulliganing to leyline with rishadan and aether vial with no mountains. So generally the opponent would rather keep disruptive and slow hand rather than try to win quickly resulting for a much longer game.

Now for ichorid to "go off" successfully it needs to use at least 3 mana. 1 mana to remove the hate, 1 mana to discard and 1 mana to draw. I often find myself mulliganing to 1 landers and I can get the hate of the table, but then my only land gets wasted away preventing me from casting spells until I topdeck another land. I know I can still play slow dredge but it is a strategy that has never won for me; therefore I am not in favor of it. Addition of non wastelandable sources of mana such as the petals or chrome moxen or additional lands can help in ensuring access to at least 1 mana the whole game and could have netted me victories in some of my game 3 losses.

This is all opinion though and criticisms and alternate reasonings would be most welcome.

[Lemuria]

@Kokusho


Your list runs 59 cards. You may add a Putrid Imp in that remaining slot since he is so retarded.

[dlevsApiJ]

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

[dlevsApiJ]

I'm thinking to make this changes to my latest list:

Main:
+ 1 Gamble (instead of 1 PImp more)

Side:
+ 1 Echoing Truth (a reason for the 3th Gamble)
- 1 Ray of Revelation (1 is enough)

So you have 5 bounce spells, and 3 searches for them.. The truth is good for multiple Leylines/Crypts (sometimes I board in Bounce, cause I think they board in Leylines, but then I see Crypt´s.. when I dont know what they should board in, I board in the Bounce,, Bounce against Crypts is better then CotV against Leyline :P, and when you can combo the same turn ore can use a Therapy its not a problem any more..) but I gonna test if its good enough (cause it cost 2 mana!)

Mvg

[slobad23]

Is there any reason that mental note isn't used in this deck? I mean, it puts 2 cards from the library into the graveyard and then you draw/dredge.

Has it been excluded because you can't be sure you will be throwing away a dredge card?

[Bovinious]

Mental Note would be worse than Careful Study, Tireless Tribe, Street Wraith, Brainstorm, and a few other cards prolly. The card is just unreliable and weak in this deck and awful in general.

[myselves]

Maybe I'll take part in the next tournament with Ichorid, I'm not sure to choose Icho for this tournament, cause most of the players expect Grow, Landstill and Belcher .

My current list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 DA
3 Dread Return

4 Bridge from below

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
2 Cephalid Sage
1 FKZ/Homura, Human Ascendant

At the moment I'm not sure to play FKZ and not Homura, because Homura enable Ichorid to beat for 5, and turns the token to flying Werebears.
So my thought is, that Homura put me in a position to rape some random aggrodecks.

[Bovinious]

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

[myselves]

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

I know, but Homura coul be sacced for Therapy or another Return, (and flying Trolls have Style³). I actually don't know if Homura or FKZ is better, FKZ enables the 1stturnkill, but the MU against Fastcombo is worse with FKZ or Homura, against Grow, Landstill and so on it doesn't matter if you play Homura or FKZ.
I'll test again the next days.

[dlevsApiJ]

I went to a tourney with 60+ man, and I went 9th (It was withhout Top 8, before the last round, I stand 5-1-0, I made the last game, we both had wonn 1 game, same play mistakes, very stupid mistakes, else i was 2nd! (I hate myself :P).

But what I wanted to know, sometimes, when they have Crypt, and they have draw/confidant, I see boarding in Chain (on the draw) or CotV (on the play) isnt enough.. I also play 1 Grudge, so I board him in too.. so what are the best card to board out? For 4 cards you board out Sage, FKZ and 2 Dread Return, but after that, what is good to board out? At the most I will board in 9 cards (4 Chain, 4 CotV, 1 Grudge), sometimes 8 (4 Chain, 4 CotV), sometimes 5 (4 Chain/4 CotV, 1 Grudge). So what do you guys think to board out after "the combo cards"?

Mvg

[Bovinious]

You just water down your engine a bit, I SB out 1 Golgari Thug (3 MD), Putrid Imp, Ichorid, DA, Breakthrough, in that order, also depending on the matchup.

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok, so just take out some "random" cards.
And when do you board in more cards then you do other times? Cause you dont want to board in To much, then your deck becomes slower..
Sometimes I have not enough answers, and sometimes I have to many..

MVG

[JDunkin00]

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

Definately 4 PImp! He is very crucial to keep dredgers out of hand. He also beats with evasion where other discard outlets do not. Also for one mana hoser cards try my favorite card Stifle. It stops most of the sweepers (deed, keg, explosives) and saves you from crypt. This single card hoses most of the hose cards people bring in, it just doesn't stop Leyline (Blue or Black). Yes I went there. Blue leyline slows this deck tremendously by stopping multiple ichorids and zombies from being in play.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am officially tired off my current decks and wish to hop on the Ichorid train finally. I have only played against Ichorid a few times, and never piloted one. From reading the thread a bit, I am getting a general idea of the ins and outs of the deck. However, I was wondering if there was a more extensive primer lying around somewhere. The opening post doesn't go too far in depth. My apologies if it is in an easy to find location.

Edit: You know what, posters already did an awesome job explaining how this deck works... I just had to read the ENTIRE thread and not just a few pages. Excuse me and my silly laziness. Great job guys and I really enjoyed reading this. Onward to happy zombie land!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Sorry for the double post. I was wondering what the state of the deck is in the current meta. It doesn't seem to be getting that much respect now. Its all about TES and Breakast. Is Ichorid a dying breed? Or is it just waiting for the right pilot.

[Ch@os]

Thats exactly what this Deck need, no attention not too much SB hate and a good player.