[DTB] Vial Goblins

[TeenieBopper]

As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to Tarmogoyf that Vial Goblins has access to is Warren Weirding, if you run black.

Or Tarmogoyf itself. It really is never worse than piledriver.

'course, Weirding is so going in as at least a 3 of when it's legal.

[troopatroop]

not really tarmo is bad in gobs as it hardly fills the yard with valid permanents and you cant relie on you opponent to do the job, a gobs deck only has creature,land instant and artifact, of which only 3 are constant in the yard. so a 3/4 goyf is not as apealing as say a 10/2 piledriver.

But Piledriver can't answer Tarmogoyf. He should not have worded it the way he did, because a 10/2 is often much better than a 4/5 or 5/6. Tarmogoyf does in fact answer Piledriver though, although Warren's Weirding will give the Goyf player something to fear for sure.

[erhnamdjinn]

no he said the answer to goyf is goyf which I dont think is, infact I dont really fear Goyf as I have STP and Gempalm to deal with it, its Mongoose that I fear and that can now be dealt with Weirding. The reason Goyf is not good with Gobos is it doesnt fill the library as fast as other decks and it doesnt have that many diffrent card types for goyf to feed on, and you can depend on your opponent to make goyf bigger.

[MadManMax]

I agree that tarmo has no place in golbins. You can't find it with your tutors, it doesn't improve Incenerator's damage and so on. Also if a goblin player is starting to think how to defend against opposing Goyf that already means that he lost this game. Comparing Tarmo to Piledriver is a bit silly though, because Tarmo is never going to take Piledriver's place in goblins...When does this " lets put Tarmogoyf in every deck so we can anwser our opponent's tarmogoyf" thing is going to over ?

[Tacosnape]

Does it become prudent to increase the deck's Siege-Gang Commander count with Warren Weirding involved, given how this will very likely increase your connection percentage with Goblin Lackey?

...And is there room, for that matter?

[GreenOne]

Does it become prudent to increase the deck's Siege-Gang Commander count with Warren Weirding involved, given how this will very likely increase your connection percentage with Goblin Lackey?

I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

...

Holy crap, I didn't even consider that. Autoexec.Edict for the win. I'll definitely be testing that out.

[GreenOne]

Playing 2 or 3 copies of Wort can be effective against 2xPlague I guess.
You play a Wort. Next turn you take back Wort#2, the next turns you recur Weirdings till you clear the path and slowly kill with your 1/1. If they kill your Wort, you play the 2nd one and return the first one next turn. Sure, the kill is quite slow with a 1/1 and it's impossible if they have something like Manlands+Crucible, but goblins never had such possibilities.

You can even get your kill faster if you play tarfire, but I don't think it's worth the slot.

[Adan]

Hey. Go read Goblin Piledriver again. What's the first thing in the text box?

I'm not going to bother explaining Tarmogoyf over Piledriver. It involves a lot of shiny object references, and if you can't see how stupidly overpowered Tarmogoyf is in every deck, well then, I just can't help you.

If you are convinced that you want to play a non-Goblin vanilla beater over Goblin Piledriver, who is one of the most dangerous Goblins, this thread is obviously the wrong place for you and there's no way to help you7convince you that the idea is STUPID LIKE HELL. I one played against Goblins with Goyf, but replacing Piledrivers with Tarmogoyfs in Goblins would be somehow like... replacing Ichorid's Lion's Eye Diamonds with "One with Nothing".

We also mainly just run creatures, so we can't support Tarmogoyf as properly like NQG can with it's cantrips and Predict on SDT. But I already see what you are plannig to do, you will run Tarfires!

But every non-Goblin creature makes Ringleader worse. That's why the inclusion of Goyf isn't such a good idea.

[GreenOne]

There was a time when goblin didn't have (tribal) way outs for opposing Goyfs outside of Gempalm (When do you have 5+goblins on board?). People tried to solve the problem in different manners: the White splash ran MD stp, the Black splash ran Smother/Snuff Out, etc, the green splash ran Tarmogoyfs.

Playing Tarmos in goblins was counterintuitive (it's not a goblin, the deck just has 3 types of cards in grave, etc) however, it worked for some time as a necessary evil to answer opposing tarmos.

With Morningtide out however, the problem is solved by the new edict, that allows shenanigans with Wort too and has synergy with the rest of the deck. Aggro control should be easyer and playing Tarmo should be out of question, unless one (for a reason I can't understand) decide to play a Rg gobbos deck. I'm testing a version with 3 Wort, 4 "New Edict" and 1-2 Gempalms and It improves the aggro-control (mainly thresh) match a lot.

[Shriekmaw]

Thank you very much.

I don't like Tarmogoyf MB, but it seems fine in the SB.

I'm not quite sure why you would bother even running it in the board?

I would rather devote board slots to help improve my bad matchups. I'm not sure what your metagame over there is, but I have to deal with combo so 6 slots in my board is devoted to that matchup.

It seems like a lot of times the only matchup where I lose is to combo and its quite frustrating.

Tarmogoyf does not belong in Goblins, period.

[Mental]

Tarmogoyf is decent in all of your MUs but Combo. Against Thresh it's nice to have (probably better than Piledriver) and it's also fine in the mirror. That said, I don't run it in my SB. I'm just saying that I can see running it in the SB.

[Stooghenstein]

Tarmogoyf does not belong in Goblins, period.

Thats what I was trying to point out, he has no synergy with the deck at all.

[TeenieBopper]

It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

[ParkerLewis]

It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

Now you're not being honest.

It's ALREADY worse than piledriver when you're swinging with only 2 other goblins (Seriously : 6 power, although not rare, is NOT common for a Goyf. It's usually 4 or 5).
It's REALLY, REALLY worse than piledriver when you're playing a Ringleader.
It's REALLY, REALLY worse than piledriver when you have a Goblin Warchief out. (and of course I'm not even referring to the mana).

On a final note, it's also worse than piledriver when you want to gempalm something (granted, this case is far less important than the others).

So... Piledriver vs Goyf is a non-problem. It's piledriver, end of story. Now, you might be able to stick it in some of other slot, but that's another story.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's worse than Piledriver when you don't draw it but you draw Matron, or when you play Ringleader and flip it, or when you have Warchief in play, or Incinerator in hand and Goyf in play and are short 1 damage to kill some opposing creature.

3 mana is a high average cc. When a little less than a third of your deck can't be played before turn 3, your deck is not going to work in Legacy. Or, at the very least, work the way you want it to. You just won't have mana for the cards you want.

Except that that all ready describes Goblins.

4x Ringleader
4x Matron
4x Warchief
2-3x SGC
1-2x Wort

= 15-17 3cc or higher spells, not including that Incinerator usually doesn't start performing til turn 3 or later.

The list I'm proposing actually speeds that up a bit by running Tomb over Wasteland.

Piledriver would hold the same role as Earwig Squad, and would be the only thing I would want to cut for it. However, Piledriver always costs 2, where Earwig Squad costs 3 probably a little more than half the time. Piledriver also costs 1 with a Warchief out, and can swing in that turn, as opposed to Earwig Squad which costs 4 if you want to use it as a hasty beater with Warchief. It replaces Piledriver's role poorly, and is really crappy to find when you flip it with a Ringleader you didn't Vial/Lackey in.

If you're hardcasting Ringleader, you probably weren't doing anything else that turn anyway. So that's irrelevant.

Earwig Squad is also infinitely better on his own than Piledriver, or with only minimal support. Piledriver requires either Warchief shenanigans, or over-commiting to the board. Earwig is a pretty strong threat all on its own.

Secondly, when I say 'there's better alternatives', I'm not talking about slots in the deck, I'm talking about cards in your hand that you want to cast with mana open. If I had the choice between casting Earwig Squad and basically any other card in the deck, I would almost never take the Earwig Squad. Your 3cc and 4cc slots are jammed full of cards that are better than Earwig Squad by orders of magnitude.

I'm going to point out that this all ready contradicts your first point.

They're not better "by orders of magnitude". In some situations it's more beneficial to draw cards. Against a lot of decks, it's more advantageous to remove a key card and put more pressure on the table. Against Survival, for instance, or any deck running sweepers, or very few kill conditions, or combo decks. Nor does playing Earwig Squad exclude playing Matron or Ringleader next turn(or even this turn). The deck runs so many mana cheats that the argument that it's in an over-crowded cc slot doesn't really matter.

Unless you're playing a deck in which Earwig Squad is really good against, you'll only want to be casting Earwig Squad when there's no other cards in your hand, because it costs enough that it won't be until the late game when you'll be able to cast it and other things on the same turn.

Think about it. It's the worst card in your deck, but by the nature of its ability, you want to be playing it as fast as possible. That's about the worst dissynergy I could think of, tribal or not.

That's completely off base. It's the worst card in the deck only in specific match-ups. In other match-ups, Incinerator or Tin Street are the worst cards in the deck. Or Fanatic, or Piledriver. But like those cards, Earwig shines in many match-ups, and because of its tribal nature is never as bad as a non-tribal alternative(Thoughtseize, Thorn) would be.

Conditional means it's got to have prerequisite conditions before it's good, or even playable. Early-to-mid game against Survival without them having an active Survival, hitting your land drops, hell, even having a creature that can swing through reliably, all of those are conditions that make the scenario in which Earwig Squad is better than the other cards in your deck plausible. How often are you going to draw a 2-of in the early-mid game without them having a Survival active(which is a 4-of for them), with enough early creatures(because they play creatures too) that you can actually cast it for its prowl cost? How likely is this scenario?

The following card combinations will give you a turn 2 Earwig;

Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Connect, Warchief > Earwig
Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Matron, Ancient Tomb > Earwig
Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Ringleader, Ancient Tomb > Earwig
Turn 1 Fanatic > Turn Tomb, Earwig

None of those requires more than two additional cards. Scenarios in which you don't draw Earwig are irrelevant, because the card in question is Earwig, and it's no less likely to be drawn than any other card, but has the bonus of being tutorable with Matron or FoFable with Ringleader. If it's drawn in the late-game, it will usually be no worse than Piledriver, and often better, since it's a substantial threat on it own.

Not to mention, once your opponent gets any kind of actual creature threats, your Earwig Squad will always cost 5, unless your opponent is racing you, which he might do because you made your deck slow as fuck.

Were they having a going out of business sale at the hyperbole store?

Have you PLAYED Goblins? Do you have any idea how high your curve is? Or are you just deluding yourself into thinking its still an aggro deck?

Something else you're overlooking is that if you feel the necessity to cut some Piledrivers, you make the chance that you'll be able to play Earwig Squad for its Prowl cost even smaller because you don't have any creatures that can swing. Maybe you kept a few lands and a few big creatures and a Vial in your opening hand. in this scenario, Earwig Squad is terrible.

Like what? I really don't consider this relevant. You're not exactly going to be emptying this hand at record pace anyway, so having an additional card stuck in your hand because you don't know how to mulligan isn't exactly a smoking gun, chief.

Kiki-jiki terrible. Goblin Goon terrible. It's a dead card if you don't have the creatures to get the damage in with, and you only have 10-12 creatures that cost 2 or less now. Those aren't good odds for you, especially if your opponent also has a creature.

If aren't getting out guys early, and your opponent is, what good is Piledriver?

[Nihil Credo]

I won't pretend to have more than basic experience with Goblins, but I can tell the difference between Piledriver and Earwig: you play Piledriver and then attack into and through your opponent's blockers, whereas you have to attack through your opponent's blockers to play Earwig in the first place.

Or let's put it like this: you go land, Lackey/Fanatic. The opponent kills it, counters it, or plays a blocker. With Piledriver, you shrug and play it anyway - it will still be a big threat in a turn or two. Earwig instead just got Time Stretched.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The thing is that if you lose your 1 drop, Piledriver is only a big threat if you have a Chief or hit the late-game. He's a Squire on his own. He's obviously a different function than Earwig, but my point is that people are making a move away from Piledriver anyway - he's just not particularly good in a lot of match-ups.

[Stooghenstein]

It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

I don't care if a card is stupidly overpowered the only way to get him in play is through drawing him, where as piledriver has many ways to get searched for. Running tarmogoyf over piledriver is straight up pointless, in my honest opinion running tarmogoyf in general in goblins is pointless and your only conforming with the rest of the players and running tarmogoyf in every deck.

[TheCramp]

I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

(hello all, I'm a dirty goblins player, but I never post in this thread. Read it though. On to the observations...)

I have been testing Warren Weirding (-1 Gem Palm, -1 Piledriver, -1 Mogg F. I run 2 Wort and 1 Siege Gang. since people have been talking about that ratio.) I have been testing against Black thresh, White thresh, and Dragon Stompy.

It has changed these matches match profoundly. I don't have enough testing done to say what the percentage is, but it matters a great deal. It can't slip under counter magic, but Wort does, and has put me in the hilarious position of taking the control position. (which I love, for the irony of playing control with a RB deck full of creatures against a Uwg deck full of permission. Warms my heart. Also, I built goblins back in the deck to play test against the control decks I loved so. I have been a dirty goblins fan ever since. Landstill does lead to harder drugs as it turns out...)

After testing, I came to the following conclusions:

1) Put in a basic swamp.

Wasteland kept me of Warren Weirding a number of times. Vial and Lacky obviously don't fix mana for Warren Weirding, and this change had a notable effect. I cut a port for it, so as to not effect my red count.

2) I'm thinking of cutting a matron for the 4th Warren Weirding.

I was tutoring for it so frequently, this seems like the right move, but I would rather test against decks where Warren Weirding is weaker before making that sort of move.