I really like chandra, but I don't think is THAT good in this deck because it is really slow. If your problem is Sea Drake, use Pyrokinesis..Originally Posted by moOnsteak
'Cept for Chandra, our list look similar:
I have 3 jitte and no SoL&S (maybe I'll test it) because I really want a red card in my hand to pitch, and I don't want to pitch a treat so I use 3 Blood Moon maindeck + 1 Sideboard.
My Chandra slot maybe should be used for a treat, but I think a 4th Arcslogger would be too much.... I think I'll try a second Akroma:
"ok,Morph.. 33% Girl and 66% Boy Chance..."
also consider your sideboard, and please post it!
Mine is:
4 Tromod
3 Pithing needle
1 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 PyroCLASM (you can try Pyrokinesis)
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
I've always been pro playing into Daze with Stompy decks for the most part. You can't generalize completely since if you're holding one last bomb you may want to play around Daze.
Basically my philosophy is "We're a deck that is completely driven by dropping expensive cards early", right? So waiting an extra turn to play all our cards is hurting our fundemental strategy. If you know they have a Daze, ok wait. But really there is usually only a 50% chance they have one if they are packing four, so I'd really rather not give them the turn in which to dig for a Force/Grip/Bolt, drop Counterbalance/Top/Meddling Mage, or just do something hurtful to us. I say if you're on the play and you can go Tomb -> Chalice@1, fire away. A lot of people disagree, but if I'm going down with an aggressive deck, I'd rather go down swinging than because I was too meek.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Ok here's more about Chandra. .she control the field not just at one time. .when Pyrokinesis do. .for an example, if my opponent cast Ornithopter waiting for Plating to be equipped, sure I will pyro it same with the others (frogmite and disciple of vault for example). .but when my opponent soon drop 2nd orni, I'll have no answer. .and that's why I need Chandra. .
Same case when you face an opponent who runs so many shadow creatures with a lot of equipment. .I know it's rare but it happen in my meta so 1 Chandra is my plan against it. .
owh yeah my sideboard will be :
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
I have same problem too against 'Daze'. .that's why I still contain Trinisphere main. .so my oppent have to choose, daze it or you'll never able to cas daze again. .
n my baby says,"papa papa, u don't payat upkeep. ."
"Tidal forces of the blood moon wrench and buckle the land, drawing monoliths of stone and soil toward the flaming orb"
I guess if you really need to kill ornithopters you can play Chandra, but I know that whenever I have needed to answer a threat it is usually because it's bigger than my creatures, and in that case Chandra is usually somewhat worse than a fireball or a wall of stone.
Also, about your board: play 4 Pithing Needle.
Red Wizard needs food badly!
ssg can be a nice trick against daze
test it, buy it, play it
Ok, but I think that Chandra is useful only if you drop it 1swt/2nd turn.
This implies a seething song.
And I'd rather drop a rakdos pit dragon or an arcslogger, because Chandra is a slow yet persistent control card, Dragon or Slogger are a win condition.
I personally love Pyroclasm and I think I'll use it over Pyrokinesis, because a lot of times is a card advantage removal, cheap and with the ability to kill a naked troll, or a early mongoose.. and Pyroclasm is never a dead card in your hand , since is very cheap.
About Daze: I don't care. Really. If you daze me a chalice, I'll drop a moon. You only have 4 Dazes and you loose tempo every time.
Yes, you can try to daze me, but if you are counting on you 4_pack Dazes, I have my 4_pack 'Rillaz... So basically is all bluff and luck, don't waste time and play aggro(OBV IMHO)
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Playing into daze seems like a bad idea if you have only 1 disruption piece in your hand and no SSG. If you have more than one and feel like drawing some tempo to drop a bomb (like Chalice at 2), then go for it. Of course then you lose to FoW or swords.
Red Wizard needs food badly!
Right. I mean if i have a Chalice in hand, a City/tomb, and a mountain, with no SSG, it seems to me like I should drop Mountain, pass, then Chalice @1 next turn without the threat of Daze. Then either forces them for have Force, or Chalice pretty much shuts them down.
Team ICBE - We're so good at playing Threshold, we don't even play it.
Team Keg Stand - If only the kegs weren't empty...
Right, but weigh that against the fact that that extra turn is going to allow them to dig for Force (possibly 8 deep with two Ponders) or double Daze or Spell Snare or Krosan Grip. Now you're going to lose a game you would have won because you were afraid of a card they may or may not have had.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
If I am not the first player, and I see a "Flooded Strand, Go",
I try a "chalice for 1" anyway.
If he has a FoW, he has to pitch something, if he has a Daze, he'll be slow and jump a land drop, so the next turn I can try a Blood Moon.
Another Daze or Fow? No problem, when You'll see my Arcslogger your FoW will be floating in your deck somewhere.
Also consider that my Simian Spirit Guide is great against Daze...
----
Shall we keep Trinisphere in Sideboard at all?
Why don't we try somethin like evoke cards (Ingot Chewer) and Sword of Light and Shadow?
Just thinking about some new sinergy, since we can play around our own Chalice and still use cheap spells if we avoid Trinisphere..
Last edited by Rinello; 01-29-2008 at 07:15 PM.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
I'm not all that opposed to experimenting with Trinispherelessness, although this will cause a significant dent in matchups like Epic Storm, as well as making it a lot harder to recover should you go 0-1 or 1-1 with decks like Threshold and have an opportunity to board them in on the play.
If Trinisphere is replaced, and that's a huge if, there are only two cards I'd consider in its place. Pyroblast and Serum Powder.
Pyroblast is solid. Decks like Threshold and Landstill beat us by countering our Blood Moons / Chalices, then drawing or cantripping into more counters while we topdeck crap. Pyroblast allows you to power Chalices and Moons through counters. It's decent against any blue deck on a slow draw, also, as it makes the occasions where you have to lead with "Mountain, Go" not so bad.
Serum Powder's probably even better, however. I've been running this for a couple months and it's nice. It ensures you'll get Blood Moons in matches where Moons auto-win. Ditto for Chalices. It'll help you dig up those Crypts against Ichorid, Needles against Survival and Belcher, Pyroclasm/kinesis against Goblins, or whatever the case may be. What's more, if you get Moons online, the mana part of Serum Powder isn't all that irrelevant, as it can help you cast Dragons and Sloggers.
The version of the deck I am planning on building once I have the skeleton of the deck (thanks to my friend and birthday) is as follows:
// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
As far as the main board goes, I think its a pretty common mainboard now that we have established that Akroma and Sulfur Elemental are two of the new powerhouses of the deck. However I have decided to run 2 Sword of Light and Shadow in the deck, only because in my meta, White and Black seem to be the primary colors that my opposition likes to play.
In the sideboard I am running Winter Orbs instead of Pithing Needles because I have had the displeasure of coming up against Landstill and Aggro Loam one to many times in my play history, and I like the idea of not only having moon to shut these decks down, but also Winter Orb to slow them down considerably! I am also keeping the Trinisphere in the sideboard for those match ups in which I find myself facing Burn decks and the like, I know for a fact there is a Goblin deck in my meta, and it would be severely hurt by Trinisphere. So I look forward to putting that in the sideboard as well. Tormod's Crypt and Pyroclasm are my primary weapons against dredge. Unfortunately I am a little skeptical at their effectiveness!
Cutting Trinisphere seems terrible. The card is absolutely broken. I am always hesitant to board it out even on the draw because it's such a strong tempo play, which is what a deck like this wants. Chalice and Blood Moon are occasionally stronger but neither is as consistently good as an early trinisphere. When they have to choose between answering the Gathan Raiders on the table and countering your Pit-Dragon you have already won the game. Then there are the matchups, namely combo, where it is the number one card you want to see. This fact alone justifies it's inclusion in your sideboard at least since combo forms a decent percentage of any metagame.
In short, there is a reason this card is restricted in vintage.
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
This is an astoundingly bad argument. Most of the accompanying cards that made Trinisphere retarded in Vintage are either not legal or just plan bad in Legacy Chalice Aggro. I could list them, but just go pull a Shop Aggro/$T4KS decklist from circa February 2005 and read it. How many of those cards are legal in Legacy and good in Dragon Stompy?
I would say that replacing 3sphere with 'tech' like Pyroblast is probably giving away matchup %age and is the complete opposite of the deck's strategy, but Serum Powder is at least an interesting idea.
Starting game 2/3 with gamebreaking "Card X" ~55-60% of the time versus 40% isn't bad at all. You already play the scariest "I randomly win this game because you didn't have FoW" hosers in the format main deck. I would think drawing more of them against problematic matchups is all you can ask from a sideboard card and I don't see the difference between 3sphere and Serum Powder in that respect, except that 3sphere is broken by itself and Serum Powder lets you mulligan out of the amazing Tomb, City, 4 red cards opening hand for free.
if you check the first page, sulfur has been in the list from the beginning.
as for 3sphere, it rocks in my meta, kills combo, stops burn severly, there wasn`t a game where i didn`t like to see 3sphere first turn on the table, not to say that against any matchup a first turn 3sphere on the play = 2 timewalks
test it, buy it, play it
This is not entirely true. 3sphere was restricted in Vintage because it could be reliably played first turn and the DCI concluded that a reliable, first-turn 3sphere was "unfun".And that reason is Mishra's Workshop
Sure, Workshop was a large part of why it could be reliably played so early, but don't forget about the SoLoMoxen, etc. And it really wasn't an issue of "broken" interactions. There was no real consensus that 3sphere was broken in Vintage.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
Split, moved and merged all of the posts about Serum Powder to a new thread in the "Format Discussion Forum."
Let's get the discussion back on track and on-topic. Grazi. - Bardo
Back on track with Trinisphere discussions.
I'll concede that yes, there are very very few games where you aren't going to want a turn one Trinisphere. Turn one Trinisphere is very strong, no debate. There are matches where I will board in Trinisphere (It now lives in my sideboard) strictly when I'm about to be on the play, just because Trinisphere is so good in this situation.
The drawback, however, is that we don't always -get- a turn one Trinisphere. Sometimes we can't get it out until turn two. Sometimes we don't draw it until turn three. Sometimes our opponent gets to go first and does something annoying like Ritual/Specter, or Aether Vial. How many games do you want to see a Trinisphere when you can't get it down quickly?
Sometimes the answer to that will still be "Quite a few," depending on your metagame. However, by this time, the number will have dwindled severely.
The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"
The answer probably depends on your metagame, but I personally feel like Trinisphere influences the outcome of more games for this deck, both positively and negatively, than any other card it runs. I feel that due to the fact Dragon Stompy can't back up Trinisphere with any additional land destruction, that a lot of decks manage to escape from the turn one Trinisphere because I had to imprint a threat I needed on a Chrome Mox in order to get the turn one Trinisphere, and then topdeck crappily for a turn or two. I also feel I lose more due to topdecking it midgame than I win by dropping it first turn.
Thank you, God.
We win more games from turn 1 Trinisphere being a meta Time Walk only if we cannot make a turn 1 Blood Moon or a turn 1 Chalice.The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"
This is my opinion, but I'd rather make a I_start_turn_1 chalice @1 than a turn 1 trinisphere, as my sphere will be NEAR useless when turn 3 will come, while my chalice will FOREVER stop STP_on_Dragon or BEB_against_Moon
Anyway I fell the same as you do: 3Sphere does not imprint on a mox, and we have few threats.
So we must consider that Moon is a "deck killer" like 3sphere (if not better) and it is RED (relevant to our pitch) and Moon last forever, while sphere is avoided when opponent has 3 lands.
I feel that 3 sphere goes in SB, and only 3x, not 4x.
I think is must be used only against Burn, threshold , TES etc..
but a lot of times, a Blood Moon or Chalice @1/2 will be better, as it last longer.
Also I think it can kill an opponent turn 1, especially if I start, but unlike Blood Moon, I cannot use it turn 1 and then think: "ok,even if I draw a crappy topdeck, I have won, my opponent is screwed, he has 2 fetches in his hand."
If I use a Moon or Chalice turn 1 I can WAIT and topdeck crap turn 2, cause I locked him hard.. this does not happen if I use trinisphere MAINDECK (I mean, Vs TES a turn 1 trinisphere is win.)
Last part (sorry about redundacy):
Taco, I feel like you are my personal Guru in this discussion, so I consider your post like GOLD. Every time you write I agree and feel like we have the same plan in mind, you only have the chance to test this deck more than me:
Can you give your personal list? Maybe I just leech it, but I think that this way the discussion can advance to a new level.
Thanks.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
I hate sharing lists that I haven't had for very long, because I lack the testing or certainty to back up the choices very well, but at current, here's my list.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (Edit: I'm dumb.)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
2 Pyroblast
Several points on this list.
1. In my defense, yes, I know it's very possible that 2 Jitte is nowhere near enough equipment. It's an experiment. I will say that with 24 threats, the deck can simply overwhelm you with giant guys, and I don't lose nearly as often to not topdecking a threat midgame.
2. No, I'm not endorsing Pyrokinesis over Pyroclasm, or vice versa. This is also an experiment. I go back and forth a lot. I will say that Kinesis gains strength when most of your deck is red, and Pyroclasm gains strength in Stax-heavier versions. Kinesis -should- be better in the mirror, too, but I'm not entirely sure about that yet.
3. The Pyroblast is an experiment to try and better my Landstill matchup. I've also tried Defense Grid in this slot, which seems to be much better if my sole goal is to resolve a Blood Moon. This could easily be -2 Pyroblast, +1 Crypt, +1 Trinisphere (Or +0 Crypt, +2 Trinisphere).
4. My brain can't logically make it right for it to be a 2/2 split between Sulfur and Akroma, but so far it seems to be doing okay. Sulfur's good as sneaky removal (Flash and block), and Akroma's big and scary, but 4 of either one has left me disappointed.
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