[OLD] UGw Threshold

[kabal]

-It's better than Geese in the mirror.

To a degree, but ...

Geese can not be StP, nabbed by Threads or countered by Spell Snare.

[Adan]

As kabal said, to a degree. Werebears might be bigger than Mongeese, yes, but Werebear+Tarmogoyf... I think you will get raped by EE2, Thread of Disloyalty, Mind Harness (I'm damn surprised and amazed by that card!) and yes, Spell Snare. And the rest of it, Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Ghastly Demise...

And, hell, Hydroblasts are the most "metaish" choice of all. Krosan Grip, Repeal, Wipe Away/Rushing River, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives are all VERSATILE. Hell, even Oblivion Rings are more versatile than Hydroblasts.

Hydroblasts are good in...well...2 single matchups. Even though you may play them just 4 fun to blast a land at random or whatsoever, these 2 matchups won't ever be a good justification for me to play them maindeck. It's like playing Armageddon in 42Land maindeck just to beat Landstill and MUC.
Or Pyrostatic Pillar maindeck to beat at least 1 of those 2 Solidarities running around.

And I really don't know what to think about that post of you, nastynate. The best plan to beat Dragon Stompy is: Being more consistent than the opponent and then BOARD THOSE CARDS IN afterwards in g2 & g3.
This conclusion was made by 4 people within 8 posts, agreed/signed/confirmed/whatever by everyone and so it was clear.

Maindecking them might improve the DragonStompy matchup, but it makes every other matchup worse for you because you lack 3 versatile cards like...Needle against Survival, Landstill, 43Land, Goblins, Belcher...

And well, Mongeese are overall more dangerous than Werebears because the opponent can hardly get rid of them. Werebears are like slower but bigger Mongeese with all the disadvantages Mongeese don't have.

[nastynate]

As kabal said, to a degree. Werebears might be bigger than Mongeese, yes, but Werebear+Tarmogoyf... I think you will get raped by EE2, Thread of Disloyalty, Mind Harness (I'm damn surprised and amazed by that card!) and yes, Spell Snare. And the rest of it, Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Ghastly Demise...

Like I was saying before, I know why geese are good, and even in the list I posted I put geese in parentheses because they have their own strengths. Werebears are just plain better in some match-ups though.

And, hell, Hydroblasts are the most "metaish" choice of all. Krosan Grip, Repeal, Wipe Away/Rushing River, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives are all VERSATILE. Hell, even Oblivion Rings are more versatile than Hydroblasts.

I already run 3 EE. Yes those 3 hydroblasts are very meta-ish, but in my meta they are real bombs. Unlike bounce, which I admit is more universally applicable, they actually deal with threats on their own, threats which I see in about 50% of my match-ups (which includes bunches of lightning bolts, moons, and red threats). Bouncing a red threat only deals with it until they cast it again.

Hydroblasts are good in...well...2 single matchups. Even though you may play them just 4 fun to blast a land at random or whatsoever, these 2 matchups won't ever be a good justification for me to play them maindeck. It's like playing Armageddon in 42Land maindeck just to beat Landstill and MUC.Or Pyrostatic Pillar maindeck to beat at least 1 of those 2 Solidarities running around.

Armageddon in 42 Lands is a very unfair comparison. Blue blasts are 1 CC counters/destruction in a deck built on a low curve and counters...armageddon in 42 Lands has far less synergy with it's core strategy. I listed some of the match-ups they help in already, and it's much more than two. It might be only 2 match-ups in your meta, in which case they would be trash. I already explained that they are a metagame call.

Maindecking them might improve the DragonStompy matchup, but it makes every other matchup worse for you because you lack 3 versatile cards like...Needle against Survival, Landstill, 43Land, Goblins, Belcher...

It doesn't make every other match-up less favorable. Even among those you just mentioned, hydroblast is better than needle against both goblins and belcher. It's certainly less valuable against Survival, Lands, and Landstill, but of those three decks I only occasionally see Survival, and the other two are simply not there.

And well, Mongeese are overall more dangerous than Werebears because the opponent can hardly get rid of them. Werebears are like slower but bigger Mongeese with all the disadvantages Mongeese don't have.

Werebears also have benefits mongeese don't have. If you don't like werebears that's fine, don't run them, but that doesn't mean there aren't times when werbears are better.

Let's just let the whole debate drop OK. I understand your points, and I know you don't agree with mine.

[Kyachi]

Let's just let the whole debate drop OK. I understand your points, and I know you don't agree with mine.

You can't end an argument just because you refuse to listen to the other person's logic any more. Well, you can I suppose, but you would be Jesse Ventura...

Seriously having dead cards, like honestly potentially useless cards, is a really iffy option in any deck, but especially in Threshold, where every slot counts.

Further, on mongoose v. werebear- While werebear is big, Mongoose, or rather multiple mongooses can make the difference against control decks when they can't use targeted removal to save themselves. This is a huge difference between Mongoose and Werebear; werebear will never randomly win a game outside of being a creature that can attack.

[J.V.]

It doesn't make every other match-up less favorable. Even among those you just mentioned, hydroblast is better than needle against both goblins and belcher. It's certainly less valuable against Survival, Lands, and Landstill, but of those three decks I only occasionally see Survival, and the other two are simply not there.

Sorry to cut into your arguement but:
Needle on Aether Vial>Hydroblast against Goblins (note there are situational exceptions but in general...) [also it hits Wasteland, Gempalm Incinerator, and Rishadan Port which situationally are huge]
And
Needle on belcher = Hydroblast on Burning Wish against belcher and realistically its the only thing you'd blast because if they are wishing then they are going for ETW and blasting ETW still makes you lose to storm.

[nastynate]

You can't end an argument just because you refuse to listen to the other person's logic any more. Well, you can I suppose, but you would be Jesse Ventura...

Actually, how does one expect an argument to end in which neither side agrees? I think bowing out is more admirable that dragging it on endlessly.

Seriously having dead cards, like honestly potentially useless cards, is a really iffy option in any deck, but especially in Threshold, where every slot counts.

They aren't useless or dead in my metagame. I used to board blasts in against more than half the decks I was facing. The natural solution is to just put them in the main-deck instead. How is that wrong? When a side-board card is spending more time in your main-deck than it is in your side-board it's time to just give in and main-deck the card. That's all I've done.

If the hydroblasts are a bad call in your metagame then don't run them, but how can anyone playing in different meta claim that they'd be bad in mine? Obviously many people, like you and Adan, don't play in a metagame where this would be a viable option. That's why I wanted to just drop the whole affair. If that makes me a wrestler, turned actor, turned governor then so be it.

Further, on mongoose v. werebear- While werebear is big, Mongoose, or rather multiple mongooses can make the difference against control decks when they can't use targeted removal to save themselves. This is a huge difference between Mongoose and Werebear; werebear will never randomly win a game outside of being a creature that can attack.

Nobody plays control in my metagame except me and one other guy (who usually plays UGb Thresh). EE can deal with his mongeese, or I can simply block them since all my creatures are larger than them. I fear his dark confidants much more than his mongeese.

Werebear will randomly win games against decks packing wastelands or b-moon effects, both of which I see often. People obviously like to overlook this benefit (except for Anti~American4621, thanks dude).

Sorry to cut into your arguement but:
Needle on Aether Vial>Hydroblast against Goblins (note there are situational exceptions but in general...) [also it hits Wasteland, Gempalm Incinerator, and Rishadan Port which situationally are huge]
And
Needle on belcher = Hydroblast on Burning Wish against belcher and realistically its the only thing you'd blast because if they are wishing then they are going for ETW and blasting ETW still makes you lose to storm.

Cut in all you want. It's cool.

Needle on aether vial is pretty huge (I'll admit that), but they only run 4 vials, and they run more than 2 dozen hydroblast targets (lackey and ringleader come to mind). I'm also running 4 basic islands, 4 werebear, and 8 fetches, so wasteland and port are less effective against me (and not really worth naming with needle). I also still have 3 main deck EE to destroy vials should they hit play, and EE (which won't be around for long) is far less likely to get destroyed by a tin-street hooligan than a pithing needle (which just sits there waiting for them to kill it). In a Threshhold deck with a more vulnerable mana-base and without EE in the main deck, pithing needle is > hydroblast, but in mine hydroblast is > than pithing needle against goblins.

Against belcher, hydroblast hits burning wish, pyroblast, and mana sources, while needle just forces them to use EtW instead, or burning wish for shattering spree. If I had to choose between needle or hydroblast in this match-up I'd go for the hydroblasts; blasts just hit more cards, and aren't so easily answered.

Certainly other match-ups like Lands!, Landstill, and non-red Survival decks make blasts pretty unappealing, but I almost never face those decks. I do sometimes have to deal with Ichorid, but against them almost my entire is deck is dead, not just my hydroblasts. Post board I have 4 crypts and 4 EE which gives me a fighting chance.

[godryk]

Well, obviously, everyone is free to adapt his list to his own meta.

I played the deck in small tournament at a friend's small shop and was quite impressed with it. I just played four rounds of swiss facing Landstill, MUC, a rockish deck and a random green aggro deck only losing to The Rock, that's not bad considering Pernicious Deed, eight edicts and fucking Troll Ascetic laughing at my Swords/EE.

I can say my MVP was Mongoose, closely followed by MD Pithing Needle. First turn Pithing on their EE/Pernicious followed by turn 2 Mongoose is incredibily solid and won me 3 games. I can consider including Werebear in Threshold but I can hardly imagine kicking Mongoose out of the deck as it was my opponents' worst nightmare or, at leat, that's what they said to me.

Other great one was Mystic Enforcer and his ability to own Goyf (most of time), Morphling, Exalted Angel or Quagnoth. It's so good that I sometimes wish a third one.

I played a very standard list with 17 lands, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 EE and 2 Mystic Enforcer.

[Braves]

Well, obviously, everyone is free to adapt his list to his own meta.

I played the deck in small tournament at a friend's small shop and was quite impressed with it. I just played four rounds of swiss facing Landstill, MUC, a rockish deck and a random green aggro deck only losing to The Rock, that's not bad considering Pernicious Deed, eight edicts and fucking Troll Ascetic laughing at my Swords/EE.

I can say my MVP was Mongoose, closely followed by MD Pithing Needle. First turn Pithing on their EE/Pernicious followed by turn 2 Mongoose is incredibily solid and won me 3 games. I can consider including Werebear in Threshold but I can hardly imagine kicking Mongoose out of the deck as it was my opponents' worst nightmare or,at leat, that's what they said to me.

Other great one was Mystic Enforcer and his ability to own Goyf (most of time), Morphling, Exlated Angel or Quagnoth. It's so good that I sometimes wish a third one.

I played a very standard list with 17 lands, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 EE and 2 Mystic Enforcer.

Ive been testing mystic enforcers as a two of. Almost always it seems dead to me. I can play a mongoose or goyf early, but the gwcc 4 converted mana cost never seems worth it to me while playing. Its like I need to save countermana or top mana, and not tap out to play mystic enforcer, only time i play him is late late game and its just a win more card, or earlier if I have daze/fow back up in hand. Im going to test 4- goyf, 4- mongoose, 2- werebear this week.

[ParkerLewis]

Ive been testing mystic enforcers as a two of. Almost always it seems dead to me. I can play a mongoose or goyf early, but the gwcc 4 converted mana cost never seems worth it to me while playing. Its like I need to save countermana or top mana, and not tap out to play mystic enforcer, only time i play him is late late game and its just a win more card, or earlier if I have daze/fow back up in hand. Im going to test 4- goyf, 4- mongoose, 2- werebear this week.

How many cantrips do you run ? I run 12 (Brainstorm/Ponder/Predict), and i've never had any problems casting Enforcers (which i run as a 2-of too, running the usual number of 17 lands). And they've proved extremely potent when cast. I've never really felt it was a win more card - at worst it's a "finishing blow", and it's usually much more than that, turning crappy situations into wins.

[Patoon]

I am interested for some people perspectives as to what the better build for a skewed meta, as in one which you would consider tier 1.5/2.

I have been running, what you would call an optimised thresh list, but i am finding that i am running into great amounts of trouble.

Here is the list i have run

4 x Nimble Mongoose
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Mystic Enforcer

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
4 x Stifle
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Ponder
3 x Counterbalance
3 x Sensei's Divining Top
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Engineered Explosives

I guess the biggest issues i have faced are;

1. Counterbalance isnt the bomb it should be: Against an unknown meta CB tends to not counter as much as you want it too.

2. Threshold is not coming or is coming too late: I found to often i wasn't hitting threshold, so my goose were weak and my flyers didnt fly.


I have considered altering this list as follows.
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Mystic Enforcer

+4 Serendib Efreet
+4 Counterspell

I really like the serendib efreets, (revised ones seem rather at home in the deck, its like they were printed green for a reason). The counterspells i am really not sure about, maybe there is a better counter for this situation (mana leak..?)

Tell me what you think or if you have experience with this kind of skewed meta

N.B. Typical Decks in my meta
Death & Taxes
Stax
Dragon Stompy
Faerie Stompy
Burn

[ParkerLewis]

I am interested for some people perspectives as to what the better build for a skewed meta, as in one which you would consider tier 1.5/2.

I have been running, what you would call an optimised thresh list, but i am finding that i am running into great amounts of trouble.

Here is the list i have run

I noticed you're only running 8 cantrips. The usual package is 10 minimum, and more like 11-12. Do you really need the stifles ? Otherwise, you might want to replace them for Predicts. Good card (can even generate CA thanks to top/ponder manipulation). Plus, now you'll be able to go from 18 lands (according to your current spell number) to 17, freeing up a slot (for a second needle ?) thanks to the additional smoothing. Additionally, you'll be hitting Threshold more easily. Moreover, as with stifle, you can pitch it to force if needed. Finally, it's a 2cc card, which in your list mean you'll go from 6 to 10 cards that can counter a 2cc spell under a counterbalance (while not really affecting your 1cc countering capability). Rejoice, because adding this card to the list basically answers all the problems you've mentioned.

Also, what's your manabase like ? You usually want ~3 basics (2 island 1 forest, maybe one more if you're facing a lot of moon/wasteland effects), 6 duals, and 8 fetches.

[godryk]

I think that CB isn't supossed to counter everything, specially against decks not named Threshold, but I find it useful countering all cheap utility spells like counters, removal, discard, burn, etc. Then you're left with FoW, Pithing Needle and whatever you may include for the higher costed spells.

It's something like I counter your Duress, Smother or Dark Confidant, I swords you Tombstalker. I counter your Brainstorm, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, I needle you EE. With CB I feel like saving my spells so that I can use them on stuff CB can't stop.

[TrialByFire]

Quick question for you guys: I have been having a very hard time figuring out if I should run the 4th Daze or a 1 off Oblivion Ring. I know most people say Daze isn't effective unless you run 4, but I have been running 3 for a few weeks just to try out the Oblivion Ring. The reasons for this are my meta is a lot of Stax/Dragon Stompy variants and the like, with the combo decks being reduced to just Ichorid because of those decks. Oblivion ring is very useful in those matchups, being the 4th 3cc card for Counterbalance, and also removing annoying permanents like Trinishpere or acting as the 5th StP.
Hence the question: Is the versatility and utility of O Ring enough to justify losing sme of the power of Daze by cutting it to 3?


The List:
// Lands
3 Tundra
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze OR 3 Daze, 1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

[Braves]

Quick question for you guys: I have been having a very hard time figuring out if I should run the 4th Daze or a 1 off Oblivion Ring. I know most people say Daze isn't effective unless you run 4, but I have been running 3 for a few weeks just to try out the Oblivion Ring. The reasons for this are my meta is a lot of Stax/Dragon Stompy variants and the like, with the combo decks being reduced to just Ichorid because of those decks. Oblivion ring is very useful in those matchups, being the 4th 3cc card for Counterbalance, and also removing annoying permanents like Trinishpere or acting as the 5th StP.
Hence the question: Is the versatility and utility of O Ring enough to justify losing sme of the power of Daze by cutting it to 3?


The List:
// Lands
3 Tundra
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze OR 3 Daze, 1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I havnt been liking EE in my testing. Oblivion ring might deserve a spot.

4- nimble mongoose
2- enforcer
4- goyf


4- brainstorm
4- daze
4- counterspell
4- fow
3- predict
4- ponder
3- cb
3- top
4- swords

3- flooded strand
3- polluted delta
4- trop isle
4- tundra
1- island
1- forest
1- plains

Sb

3- stifle
3- pithing needles
3- serenity
4- beb
2- tormods crypt

My current list.

[KillemallCFH]

I think O-Ring is great in Thresh. I've been testing it as a 2-of. I think cutting Daze for it is justifiable, though I can't say for sure without actually testing your list. Here is my current list for reference:
//Land (18)
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
//Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
//Couterspells (9)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Counterspell
//Cantrips (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
2 Predict
//CB-Top (5)
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
//Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Worship

I'm thinking of cutting that single Counterspell for a 3rd O-Ring, but I'm not sure yet.

[godryk]

I'm not very sure about cutting Daze for Oblivion Ring. I think ORing should replace EE when needed as it has the same use, which I assume it is helping you to handle problematic permanents. I usually use EE to get rid of cheap permanents such us Mongoose, Jitte, Vial, CBalance... If you have to face nasty things EE can't handle because of their higher cmc, then I think it would deserve its slot.

[TrialByFire]

Yea tha was my thinking to cut the EE for it, but honestly after testing, the EE was much more relevant than I thought it was. It takes out multiple permanents, untargetables, tokens, etc. O-Ring just can't match that. But I still think it deserves a slot. I notice a lot of you only run 3 Counterbalance in favor of more cantrips. Do you run the 4th in the SB? I think that CB is the most important card in the deck and want to have access to it as much as possible. I'm never mad about drawing multiples, because one usually gets killed, or I can just pitch them to Force.

[Thehunter820]

I dont feel like adding it up so could someone tell me a round about price estimate for a UGW Thresh list something like this one...

Nimble Mongoose x4
Mystic Enforcer x2
Tarmogoyf x4

Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4
Predict x3
Ponder x4
Counterbalance x4
Sensei's Divining Top x4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Flooded Strand x3
Polluted delta x3
Tropical Island x4
tundra x4
Island x1
Forest x1
Plains x1

[Dilettante]

I dont feel like adding it up so could someone tell me a round about price estimate for a UGW Thresh list something like this one...

Nimble Mongoose x4
Mystic Enforcer x2
Tarmogoyf x4

Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4
Predict x3
Ponder x4
Counterbalance x4
Sensei's Divining Top x4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Flooded Strand x3
Polluted delta x3
Tropical Island x4
tundra x4
Island x1
Forest x1
Plains x1

$575, give or take $75?

[nastynate]

Nimble Mongoose x4 = $6.00
Mystic Enforcer x2 = $5.00
Tarmogoyf x4 = $180.00 (yikes!)

Brainstorm x4 = $2.00
Daze x3 = $1.50
Counterspell x3 = $3.00
Force of Will x4 = $88.00
Predict x3 = $.75
Ponder x4 = $1.00
Counterbalance x4 = $12.00
Sensei's Divining Top x4 = $20.00
Swords to Plowshares x4 = $16.00

Flooded Strand x3 = $54.00
Polluted Delta x3 = $60.00 [Windswept Heath is better if you're running a basic forest and a basic plains and x3 = $50.00)
Tropical Island x4 = $140.00
Tundra x4 = $140.00

(I'm assuming you've got the basic lands covered)

Assuming you shop online it looks like about $720.00 unless you can find some really beat stuff or good deals in local shops.