Wait, since when is Breakfast playing StP and Daze? Also, Gempalm and/or Weirding.Originally Posted by Lepp
ah no shit you dont say...
hmm whats that daze, oh fow, oh stp, shall i continue?
but ya i md 4 fanatics still.
Is this where you go "hmm, whats that stifle, oh trickbind, oh interdict, shall i continue?" I mean, sure there are ways for Breakfast to play around Fanatic, but it slows them down by a ton. You are the aggro deck. While they try to find solutions, win.
Reading cards is tech. Okay, vial + Offalsnout = not a combo. Still decent vs dredge and (some builds of) breakfast. Could fizzle iggy, which seems swell.
Defiantly changing the name to Awfulsnout if I ever put any of these in my board.
Sorry, i'm not discrediting fanatic, yes I use 4. Just saying its not an end all answer as you posted. I play against a denial heavy breakfast deck that is able (good hand) on comboing on at the least turn 2. I have also been out of magic for I dunno, 12 years, hince I'm seeing what other people use as answers for it.
Didn't you hear Sledder is the BOMB late game.
Oh thats right Goblins has no late game versus combo.
Yeah, for real. There seems to be some misconception that Cephalophalid Breffix just steamrolls Goblins no matter what Goblins does. This is anything but the case. Cephalid Breakfast is vulnerable to a ton of your cards and has a very vulnerable manabase.
In fact, just about every change made to the deck makes it worse against Cephalid Breakfast. Like most of the time, Sledder is awful and Fanatic is fantastic here. Pyrokinesis helps. Needle helps. Wasteland helps. Incinerator helps. Crypts help, too.
Tin-Street Hooligan also helps a ton. (Take note, people who cut green.) You're a lot less scared of Abeyance when they don't have Aether Vials. And if they don't have Aether Vials, as long as you don't let them keep creatures on the board, to kill you behind an Abeyance they'd need 5 mana at the minimum, which Cephalid Breakfast sucks at getting in a vacuum and sucks moreso at getting against Wasteland.
Yeah, okay, Cephalid Breakfast sometimes wins the die roll, goes Land, En-Kor, go, Force of Wills your first turn, and then drops an illusionist and eats your face. Combo decks will sometimes be combo decks. This doesn't mean Goblins gets steamrolled.
I would just like to state about one of my past articles being entirely true!! i played at a local shop last night and tarfire > weirding for sure. The targeted removal won against everything even sacrificed two fanatics and matron for a tarfire ftw against stax when i was completely locked. It killed Dark Confidant instead of a 2/2 random zombie, it killed a Trinket mage in response to them equiping a sword of fire and ice. But however as i stated earlier in one of my previous articles all goblins has to do is run over Tarmogoyf. They cast one really big creature, i cast ALOT of 2/2, 1/1 creatures and win. Everyone in my shop agreed after witnessing that as well, except one guy who is dumb and plays random Tarmogoyf.dec but never makes top so what does that tell you. $160 for 4 Tarmogoyfs and pay $5 everyweek to waste a night at a shop, yeah thats were i want to be at 20 years old.
-go team "get there"-
Please, go to the shrink with jalousyproblems, don't let them out here.
Tarfire can be good, sure thing, but I think a recurring Edict is much, much more scary that a recurring Shock. That card gives you a chance against ********, Tarfire is very bad there. Same with X-color Stompy.
I just want to ask you what your thoughts are about the inability of Warren Weirding to target the creature you want to kill (mostly Goyf) when opponent has more than one creature (mongoose, confidant, etc). I lost games due to not being able to handle their 6/7. Obviously Wort+Weirding is awesome but this isn't happening everyday.
In spanish forums I've suggested Rb(g) Goblins without great success while more experienced Goblin players claim that white splash with swords is better prepared to handle Goyf. Then I came back to The Source and see people loving Weirding. I have to admit that The Source is probably the best Legacy site all over the world, but Goblins has been the clear Tier 1 for years and here we have also good and experienced Goblin players that perfectly know their deck so I have to give them some credit. Anyway innovation cames here with a few months of delay but always arrives sooner or later so maybe it hasn't been tested enough to get popular.
I, personally, have tested the black splash (Wort wins matches!) and I'm liking it although that mentioned scenario happens more often than what I'd like.
I just want to ask how relevant has been that issue in your testing/tournament results.
Thanks.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
I have to agree that I'm loving warren weirding. You can almost set up a soft-lock against random creature decks (read: zombies) with weirding and Wort, while beating them in the head. I think weirding has made Goblin Lackey a strong play again, solving problems such as T1 mongoose, something that Tarfire just cannot claim.
While StP is possibly better as a spot removal spell than Weirding is, there are a few differences that make the Weirding superior in this specific deck. Here's a list, for convenience.
- Formost, Warren Weirding is a goblin. This allows it to be found with both Ringleader and Matron. It also costs a single mana with Warchief. It can be recurred with Wort. All of these points are somewhat obvious, but the tutorable, recurrable removal is something that simply cannot be overlooked.
- It is black, not white. Both Green and black have significant benefits and contributions to the Goblin archetype that white does not offer. Between Wort and Weirding, as well as a plethora of sideboard options, black has much much more to offer the deck than white.
- Swords to Plowshares does not enable a Lackey connection on turn 2 when facing Mongoose. They both deal with Goyf on turn 2, which means that specific point is moot.
- Weirding can be used proactively to create another blocker or threat if needed. The Matron->Weirding->turn 1 guy into 2 hastey guys play is not so terrible in a pinch.
All of these points combine into a significant argument for Weirding over Swords in the deck. Yes, StP is better at dealing with a specific card when it's needed. For that, I strongly reccommend you test Shriekmaw in the board, as it does almost everything you want StP to do, and gets vialed in and swings for 3 fear, too.
Don't forget, just because you're playing Weirding doesn't mean you're not playing Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic and sometimes even Goblin Sharpshooter.
Also, what Nightmare said. I think I've played against him enough at this point that he can pretty much speak for me.
Again, Tin-Street doesn't have much more to offer vs. Goblin Tinkerer (Take note, people who still play green.). Tin-Street can only kill one Vial (and that's only if you don't already have a Warchief out). Meanwhile, a single Tinkerer can kill multiple Vials, and he actually gets better with an active Warchief out.
Regarding Cephalid Breakfast, you're correct; There does seem to be a misconception that Cephalid Breakfast just steamrolls Goblins, and Gobs do have quite a few MD options that can throw a wrench in their gears.
You don't get it, do you? How long is the game supposed to go for Breakfast to get Double Vial down, and STILL win? You're supposed to be the Aggro deck here, and you want to play the control deck. It doesn't work like that. Breakfast isn't really combo until it controls the play, which Goblins can disrupt very easily, and win through. If you need to kill multiple vials, you're probably already losing.
I think you're both trying to say that Breakfast isn't really a horrible match-up.
I get that you're confusing the issue. This has nothing to do with playing "the Aggro" vs. playing "the Control" role. It has to do with the need for splashing Green for Tin-Street. Tin-Street/Tinkerer are a 1-of "utility goblin". Both are played because of their reactive (control) abilities, and both are pretty poor options if you're looking to play pure aggro.
How often are you paired Vs. Breakfeast? Is that your only concern? Do you play mirrors more often (where killing multiple Vials can really make a difference)? How about the ability to kill multiple Chalices/Needles, survive an E. Plague, or to not lose your solution when you've got a Warchief in play?
Tin-Street/Tinkerer are both, 1-of, "control" cards. If you want pure aggro, then don't run either; however, apparently it does "work like that". With your own words, your argument falls appart...
"Disrupt"? Through disruption, you're playing the control role as well; so it does "work like that".
Agreed.
Osse was just attacking a Straw Man fallacy in the process.
So when my opponent gets an active jitte and i cant target the creature in response to the equip or removal of counters or beats because i do not run instant speed removal?? then what i wait for him to respond by killing my warchief when i play tinkerer?? uh no..... the thing is with cards like jitte or Sofi is that warchief is almost the first target being i loose tempo no more haste or cheap dumb guys. So then being halfway decent killing the right guy to establish some base of control over the board they have allowed me to play tin-street with its kicker! killing the problem artifact (jitte, SoFI, Ensnaring Bridge, opposing vials....Ect) and on top of that the tin-street is still better he doesnt need to have haste to be good, he lives after taking care of the job, he is aggressive (2/1 not a 1/2). And tinkerer is a win more card because if you have a warchief on board chances are good you should be winning.
-go team "get there"-
First off im not jealous or illiterate so learn how to spell!!!! Second this is not a forum to personally attack, if you will, players.(Not an Oxymoron just so everyone is on the same page so to speak.)ha ha Its to discuss Vial Goblins. And on the subject, goblins is aggro people not control so trying to Edict every turn while good in some or most cases is just not fast enough. That is my opinion which has a lot of logical reasoning behind it, however i would love feedback thank you. :)
-go team "get there"-
Uh... what does that "scenerio" have to do with the Tinkerer? Last I knew, Tin Street Hooligan didn't have Flash. If you're looking for more instant speed removal maybe you should be running more Gempalms, or some supplementary burn. SoFI can't "respond by killing your warchief when you play a tinkerer", and Gobs has many ways to control/remove a Jitte, and/or it's wielder.
The fact of the matter is that Tinkerer and Tin-Street both have their own benefits, and drawbacks. It's really just a meta call, and both are strong options (hell, even the Vandal is a viable option in the right deck/meta).
People can cherry-pick scenerios all day long, both ways, where one would be better than the other, and it still won't change the fact that they're both viable choices.
You see:
Tinkerer Cons; Not aggro enough (1/2 not a 2/1).
Others see:
Tinkerer Pros; Survives E.Plague, and survives combat with opposing Lackeys and un-threshed 'Geese.
Neither side is wrong; I simply don't see the green splash as being necessary any longer.
You seem to be fairly rooted in the belief that "goblins is aggro people, not control", but I've gotta disagree. From all of the tournament data that I've seen, it's always been the lists that can change gears (roles) on-a-dime that have been the most successful vs. a large field. They control the board with cards like Wasteland, Port, Gempalm, Fanatic, ect; they negate cards in hand (Vial vs. counters), and they run tutors (Matron); add in a draw engine (Ringleader), and it's looking like a deck that can play "the control role" quite well (and that's without the Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize/Blasts from the board).
No it's Legacy-france.com the best oneI have to admit that The Source is probably the best Legacy site all over the world
Anyway:
- warren weirding > tarfire
- green splash isn't so necessary than black splash
If my opponent is playing Jitte, I keep a vial @ 2, and they usually want to remove chief as fast as possible, yes? thus with the second -1/-1 counter from jitte on the stack, vial in tinkerer (he still has haste) and kill jitte in response, you lose chief and tinkerer, but jitte dies so you have a chance at winning.
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