Deed hits WAY too much of your own stuff for it be effective. If you Deed for 3 (which is the most common number I've found it to be activate for), you wipe out Shade, Goyf, Hippy, Seal of Primordium, Jitte, Choke, Engineered Plague. The only thing that survives is Tombstalker.
Now, of course you wouldn't Deed with tons of your own permanents on the table, but you get the point.
As far as deed goes, I played it in my board and like it. I played it over choke. Also, the only thing I would even consider taking out of the main for duress would be either seal or sinkhole. Thoughtseize and hymn are just so freakin good in this deck that unless they are replaced (which they won't be) by better cards in the next few sets, that they should stay in.
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Originally Posted by OBFREELY
Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
I play deeds on my SB. it just gets rid of too much random junk and that's why it's great. it also gives me another answer to EtW tokens, although it can be one turn too late sometimes
Ok, I agree that Deed is probably only sideboard material if we find room for it in the sb. But I would like to hear some more thoughts on the amount of Lifeloss we can take before it gets critical. As I said before that is a reason why i cutted 1 Snuff Out and 1 Thoughtseize and replaced them with spells that would be the next best option for that slot (Duress and Smother). This way I make sure that I donīt see to many of these lifeloss cards and we take ONLY about -8 life during a average game including 2 fetch 1 snuff and 1 seize.
The next point I would like to hear some thoughts on is about going down 1 Hymn for 1 extra Duress. Both are HD elements. But I preferred a extra first turn drop to get a vital card the opponent is holding because in the 2cc slot we already have enough cards we would like to play turn 2 (4Goyf, 3Hymn, 4Sinkhole,4Shade,3Seal) and knowing that they canīt be countered, sworded, dazed is often vital for success. I am just trying to optimize the pressure the deck should build up in the early game. Any thoughts????
Btw I know that Hymn is a great card, but so is Duress and Thoughtseize and they are a better topdeck in the mid- to lategame.
@Zulander: Cutting Sinkhole for extra duress would be a bad idea since both cards fit a different role in this deck. Duress makes sure you can play your own bombs whereas hole locks down the manabase combined with wasteland and choke. So duress lets you play the beaters and sinkholes slow them down so your beaters can race their strategy.
that's why I run duress instead of thoughtseize. the lifeloss could be too much at times. there's few occasions where I'd rather have seize in fact. usually we have just enough resources to deal with creatures (especially after board)
smothers are very good, but often I don't have the mana open to play it during the opponent's turn. but they're a valid replacement and if they work fine to you, then more power to you.
my board atm is 4 leylines, 3 e.plague, 3 choke, 3 jitte, and 2 deeds.
thanks for your quick reply. So I am not the only one thinking this way. I dont know if I would go as far as cutting Seize for Duress completely but I think some sort of split is the way to go. Do you have any thoughts on Hymn vs. Duress/Thoughtseize???
The second option for reducing lifeloss would be cutting more Seize so we can keep 4 Snuff Outs - like you did. So we basically both found the same problem and took slightly different approaches to solve it.
thx in advance
hymn is really good as randomly screwing your opponent. not many decks can play the same after turn 1 duress turn 2 hymn, turn 1 ritual duress hymn, or 2 hymns in sucession. I'll always go with 4
dures vs seize, go 2/2 maybe? or 3/2 in any amount you wish. it's hard to say which is the "right" way
Does not compute. Mid-late game your opponent is often just holding removal, counters, or bluffing such with lands. In all these cases, hymn >> duress/TS, as it will empty their whole hand. (if they still have 3+ cards vs an aggro deck mid-game, you probably allready lost this one) Duress will often wiff late game, and nothing is more depressing than topdecking a TS, and casting it on your oppoent to simply have them reveal a land or two as you adjust your life total for their free CA shock. At least hymn nabs whatever land they might be holding, (could possibly be relevant if they have eternal, decree, deed, ect) and hymn doesnt take 2 life to cast. I think TS should be a four-of, and hymn a 3 or 4 of. (as it also works as psuedo LD on the play or with dark rit)
Sui-black is called it that for a good reason: its suicidal. Comes with the territory, ect. You even sighted that you would rather be doing other things with two mana, I am to presume laying a goyf/sinkhole is also better than tapping out for a kill spell in an aggro deck. this is the primary reason why snuff out is run over smother. In this deck, smother <<< snuff out. Also, TS >>> duress in a sui aggro build, as the potential to wiff (especially if you could have taken a goyf or other threat) makes duress vastly inferior.
The main reason to play Snuff Out is that doesn't cost you a turn. Snuff Out costs 0 mana which means you can spend your other mana during an early turn in the game playing a spell in addition to playing Snuff Out.
Your Opponent spends a turn palying Tarmogoyf, you Snuff it Out on your own turn and play a Tarmogoyf of your own. You undid your opponents turn without losing your own.
Ok, maybe I was to fast on cutting one Hymn. But I dont think playing 4 TS is the way to go because the lifeloss is hurting to much sometimes. Even if this deck is a type of black suicide it is too much to inflict yourself 6-10 lifeloss during your first 2-3 turns. After you build up a board position you often end up beeing under 10 life which makes snuff out and TS not the best topdecks either because even if they are stronger/cheaper than their alternatives they become more or less unplayable due to their drawback or at least very risky.
For reference this is my current build:
Lands:
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp
Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantunko Shade
4 Hypnotic Spector
4 Tombstalker
Other:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn -> currently only 3 and +1 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
3 Seal of Primordium
SB:
4 Leyline
4 Choke -> they are just so good in here
4 E.Plague
3 Jitte
When sbing I found myself cutting Dark Ritual and Seals most Frequently aside with Snuff Out. -> any different experience??
Play 4 thoughtseize. Seriously.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Thoughtseize may cost 2 life to cast, but since sui doesnt do a whole lot of blocking, think of the life you'll save (and take from them) by plucking out a goyf from their hand.
Them not having a goyf >> 2 life
An important thing to understand about a deck as aggressive as this one is how crucial the strength of your opening hand and early draws is. Realistically, once your opponent cuts your deck, your resources for winning the game amount to little more than the top ten cards. This is because most of the cards in the deck lose value dramatically after the first few turns of the game. Cards like Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, and even Hypnotic Specter become significantly worse as your opponent's gameplan develops. Thoughtseize and Snuff Out are no different; in fact, this would still be true of them even if they didn't cost you life.
So, how do you best design your deck to be successful, even if you only see about 17% of it before your cards begin to be hopelessly outclassed by your opponent's? You make damn sure to run the maximum number of your best cards, which gives you the highest chances of starting each game with access to your most powerful plays.
In this case, that means including the full sets of Dark Rituals, Sinkholes, Hymn to Tourachs, and Hypnotic Specters. It also means including the full sets of both Thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs.
If you really feel like the lifeloss from Thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs is costing you games, consider that most games in which your opponent is able to attack your life total are actually lost long before the final point is dealt. Remember that Eva Green cannot successfully assume the role of a control deck in any matchup, and that being forced to do so is almost always a result of the deck failing to execute its strategy. Now, it is true that small changes in your life total can occasionally allow an otherwise defensive opponent to become the aggressor, but this is very rarely the case, even against other aggressive decks. Also, if you do come across such a situation, you have to determine whether a card less effective than Thoughtseize or Snuff Out (such as Duress or Smother) would have even been a suitable replacement.
So we are done here. Just play a 4-off of the best cards discussed. full stop.
development will be picked up again as soon as a replacement card gets available....
BTW I think that Eva Green is able to go into the mid- to lategame. Simply because it does agressive LD, HD and board control via Snuff Out and (Seal) in the first few turns and then has the potential of going aggro by topdecking better threats and recovering faster from the disruption battle (solid manabase,no synergy effects, brutal critters, more disruption).
So a Hypnotic played later on in the game can still break the oponents neck if he didnīt manage to recover from the early HD and LD and carries the early disruption plan on until he gets handled. And in the worst case he is a evasive beater with disruption attached to it that helps play the other beaters savely.
Hello guys, long time reader but first post here
I just won a tournament here in Quebec with Eva Green (around 20 players) and thought I could share my experience here.
The first thing I want to adress is this Seal vs Grip non sense. When you actually play the deck a lil, you know that Seal is clearly the better choice. First, it doesn't cost double green mana, wich the deck hate to see! You want a single bayou in play, that's all, so you are less vulnerable to opponent's wastelands. Second, it cost 1 less, and between the shade's pump ability and you being busy casting threats and/or disruption, you don't have mana open believe me. Third, it's en enchantment, so it make your Goyf larger. Finally, in the control matchup, you can lay it down when you have nothing to do, so it can protect you from a future counterbalance or Shackles: you can play your threats not worrying about em' (and pump your shade(s) too)!
About thoughtseize, play four, seriously... It's the better card, the ability to take out an opponent's Goyf or other good beater is too good not to play. Duress is just plain weaker, even more when you play against an agressive deck with lot of beaters.
I found the sideboard really good, the only change I made was Pernicious Deed instead of Plagues. Seriously, Engineered Plague is a narrow card and cost the same thing! Deed can clear ETW tokens just as well and can be usefull in lot of matchups. The only problem I had was the fallowing: what to take out??? It's so hard, I didn't want to have less threats or disruption, it was a pain in the *** each time I had to decide what to take out, except in the control matchup: choke instead of Jitte (I had em main deck instead of Seals, meta call, but a bad one) and one Snuff Out (the rest were in for opponent's Goyfs). I could use some advices as for what to side in what matchup.
Thx guys!
Krosan Grip does not cost double green. But you are right with the reasons for seal being better.First, it doesn't cost double green mana, wich the deck hate to see!
and engineered plague is just as good as deed against ETW tokens if not better (ritualed out early, easier mana cost), and randomly good against tons of other things. but on the other hand, so is deed.
in a void, I love deed, much more so than plague (and run both in SB) but if I had to choose I'd say plague is the better option for the SB slot in this particular deck
Yes Grip is 2G, my bad
Congratulations on winning the event and welcome to The Source. Glad to see that you picked up the deck. Makes me think that I should play it more often.Hello guys, long time reader but first post here
I just won a tournament here in Quebec with Eva Green (around 20 players) and thought I could share my experience here.
I have to agree with this sentiment. Seal is a very efficient proactive answer to some of the nastiest enchantments and artifacts that are floating around in Legacy. Krosan Grip by comparison is reactive, costs more, and does nothing in a pinch to pump a Goyf or power out a Tombstalker. Krosan Grip is obviously a good card, but I'm not sure it fits here.
Yes, Yes, Yes. Thoughtseize is too good not to play. Think about how many times Duress has missed where Thoughtseize is simply amazing. Thoughtseize actually improves the aggro matchup because it gives you less dead cards.
Pernicious Deed while a powerful card seems a bit out of place here. Symmetrical nature of the card often means that you will be blowing up your own creatures. Engineered Plague by comparison is better as a proactive card as you can play it and it makes an immediate impact and doesn't cost more than 3 mana. Deed can't also be cast off a ritual, which is important in cheating mana costs in a deck like this.I found the sideboard really good, the only change I made was Pernicious Deed instead of Plagues. Seriously, Engineered Plague is a narrow card and cost the same thing! Deed can clear ETW tokens just as well and can be usefull in lot of matchups. The only problem I had was the fallowing: what to take out??? It's so hard, I didn't want to have less threats or disruption, it was a pain in the *** each time I had to decide what to take out, except in the control matchup: choke instead of Jitte (I had em main deck instead of Seals, meta call, but a bad one
Thx guys!
Which matchups were you interested? What was your board?
Hello anwar! My sideboard was the fallowing:
4x Deed
4x Choke
3x Seal (Jitte were main, bad meta choice, Seal would have been better)
4x Leyline
Pretty straightfoward, but I think this side is quite good. Choke is amazing, directly responsable for my win in final vs TEC (the epic control). Leyline was good all day long too, vs Welder Survival in particular. As for deed, I think it's a better card all around than plague, but you could be right. Afterall you know the deck better than I do!
As for the matchups, what would be your sideboard tech against those deck that I face here in Quebec:
- Survival (with and without welder)
- Landstill (more often than not U/W/G or U/W, no black ones)
- Zoo (Kird ape, Goyf, Grim, Bolt, etc.)
- Burn (wich I didn't face last tournament, but I expect a hard matchup for Eva Green)
- ******** (red thresh is the most popular)
Burn is a concern for me, because we have a good player here who top8 most of the time with it. Also, no ichorid here, at all in Legacy (but quite a few in Vintage)!
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