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Why didn't lonelybaritone write this?Originally Posted by Article
Also, I thought that it was quite a nice basic introduction to Enchantress although I'm a little bit dissapointed that more recent techs like Blood Moon and Hoofprints of the Stag have not been mentioned. I guess that's what the link at the end is for.
Just as a nitpick: maybe a non-budget list (read: optimal) should have been suggested too.
Yeah. I guess I don't count as an Enchantress expert if Barnello isn't writing.
It was pretty good, but a pretty weak list, comparatively, and antiquated. I'm gonna re-read the whole thing when I get done not going to class.
I'm glad we're talking about Enchantress, though.
(Enchantress Enchantress Enchantress)
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
I really don't think Enchantress is a good starting deck as it is really complex. Even Thresh is easier, and the cards are much more widely used in other decks. And Burn is both cheap and semi-competitive. I know Enchantress is fun and good, but not for a new-to-Legacy player.
I thought you'd be pleased as punch to see an article about Enchantress : )
I don't think it's such a weak list, since it's very close to what LSV 4-1'd worlds with, and worlds seems to be a competitive field I hear. I did my research with things like Hoofprints and Blood Moon but I thought the LSV version was fine without them. As a Surival player, I can tell you that I constantly have to fight the danger of 1-of bullets in a deck that dilute it. Ultimately, neither Blood Moon nor Hoofprints solve a combo matchup. I could be wrong about the cards though.
I don't think Enchantress is too complex for new Legacy players. It'd be hard for new players in general, but people who know how to cast spellz should be fine with it. I think it's an excellent starter deck because it's easy to generally learn and then scales up in complexity as you get better as well.
To make the list not-budgetized, then just -1 confinement ring, +2 moat and swap Thoughtseizes for Duresses.
Great article.
Yep.I'm glad we're talking about Enchantress, though.
Some flaws I'd like to point out:
- You're talking about "budgetary adjustments" when you're cutting the Moat. However, you're proposing a four-colored list. Wouldn't it be more intuitive to just drop the black splash for budget? I don't know about the prizes in the US, but around here 1 Moat is roughly equal to 1 Bayou + 1 Scrubland. You'll find many lists without black (and that's not a budget issue), while almost all of the lists without Moat don't play it just for budget reasons. There's even the possibility to play straight GW (I'm not advocating that).
- You're not mentioning that this is a list for an extremely specific meta. 3 City of Solitudes main. 3 dead cards against 6 / 11 decks in the current DtB forum. At the very least, mention it.
- No newest tech like Hoofprints+Library, Blood Moon etc (although I think that the term "crap" fits better to Blood Moon that the term "tech"). That should be okay though.
Edit, found another one:
This doesn't always have to be true. Rishadan Port is The King against Sprawl. I hate it every time I see it.as Elephant Grass and Utopia Sprawl mitigate their swarm and mana-disruption strategies.
And one remark, as an Enchantress player:
GOD, when will people finally realize that Explorations suck?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Dearest Doug, you are correct. But this was a terrible way to get random people into it. Like, the list, though. I'm not saying that the article was bad, but that list was pretty much not what I'd tell somebody to play walking into a blind meta, which leads me to this:
I hate it when some asshole comes out of nowhere and is all, "lulz dud i'v3 been playing this dec for like 100 years let me tell you teh way it iz," but, Doug, "I've been playing this deck for like thirteen months. In that time I've had occasion to win 22 duals, in addition to multiple other (read: less impressive) things. I single-handedly made Enchantress a DTW for a while. When I don't know something about the deck I take the time to talk to people who are working on it with me (unfortunately, not the EPIC crowd. They have this deck with storm cards that apparently is way cooler) literally all over the world. I've played it in more than half the admittedly few tournaments I've participated in, and probably average a 50-50 record. Which isn't that bad, I guess. If there are any people around who can claim to be experts on Enchantress, I'd be big-headed enough to think that I'd be on the list."
That said, let me tell you what's wrong with your list, in my opinion:
- 1 Tutorable Enchantment/Artifact hate card
- 3 MB'd City of Solitude
- 0 Karmic Justice MD'd
- Only six accellerants (Exploration/
-cost mana-adders)
- 2 Win Conditions
- Only 3 Sterling Grove
- You're playing a Scrubland. Please note the emphasis there. Really, your whole manabase. It's just fun to call your mana scrub-y.
My reasoning and answers (in a method that both corrects this great transgression and enables my irrational love of the list function):
- Stax, despite running a 58 permanent/2 "Get back all of my permanents" deck, isn't that great a match. 2 Aura of Silences and a Seal of Primordium (note the different casting costs there, hoss) help a whole bunch. Additionally, you won't roll to an opponent setting Shackles on top of his CB.
- I can see one, but any more and you actually hinder your own game play. Since Sacred Mesa is half of your wins, and the ol' "EOT 100 mesa tokens since I'm super-duper and have sanctum in play, sac one, beat for a trillion" play r0xxorz so many boxx0rz, I can see this sucking. Additionally (that's twice I've said that just now, yet I haven't said sommelier in context yet today. Frown town), your Groves roll to the savage "Mainphase disenchant" route. Much uncoolness there. Something that doesn't hamper your own play is a much better choice, main decked. Which leads me to...
- Yeah, Karmic Justice. Screw around with the Exploration count if you'd like, and you can even board some Elephant Grasses out if you'd like to, but never, ever, remove your only out to Academy Ruins + Explosives (yes, I'm not blind - I see that you have two Ground Seals. That's nice. No, it doesn't actually read "I freaking dare you to pop your explosives at 3." Roughly translated it's more along the lines of, "Uh... now you have to draw your second one?"). It also helps greatly (in conjunction with Replenish) to even the odds against decks with Pernicious Deed and Crime // Punishment. Seriously, hoss. This is a good card.
- Every single bit of testing says that this deck needs to ramp into big mana fast. Cutting acceleration pieces of either persuasion (static like Exploration or active like Sprawl) is a bad idea. 'Specially since you run 22 lands.
- Hoofprints of the Stag is pretty good. I have no idea where you were testing, or who against, but I imagine you'd have to be under the influence if you missed this. Call it a gimick if you want - a clock was just scary enough to make this deck not a terrible choice in a random meta. Also, dodges chalice. Also, dodges extirpate. Whatever. I run 3 Hoofprints at the moment, and I'd make it 4 if I could find some chaff to cut. It's like the greatest thing ever with Sylvan Library (which has found its way back into the main deck).
- Dude, this mise well read "Demonic Tutor," 'cause it's as close as Enchantress is ever gonna get. Also, Demonic Tutor never stopped somebody from going "EOT Grip Moat, swing for 100,000 with my hundred goblins out." Seriously.
- Sir, you're running 6 lands that don't tap for Green. Dude, that's pretty dangerous. I'd, like, remedy that. Soon. Add more fetches if you want, but that's a bad number to be running.
Next time, though, don't be so irresponsible with the innocent readers of SCG and carbon copy a deck from Worlds (-4 or so cards, I think) just to fill up space. Worlds is a terrible indicator of the meta of the world at large. Seriously. It's my impression that only the best players show up, playing what they think are the best decks. It turns out that Enchantress has good matches against some really good decks in the format. Maybe that's why LSV decided to play it. I know I wouldn't've. Against THE BEST PLAYERS playing THE BEST DECKS you're bound to come up against a storm-combo player. Which means that, after liberal amounts of shuffling and letting him masturbate, you'll have like a half hour to go get some pizza. What I'm trying to say is that, while having all the time in the world to talk to [Enter random Japanese Magic wizz's name here] through his translator while the three of you munch down on some delicious pepperoni and savory mozzarella and laugh about how fast you lost might be fun for some worlds-goers, it wouldn't tow the line for me. But that's the end of this part of this enormous, opinionated rant.
Also, No Blood Moon? That card is wicked good against border-line matches. Turns 'em into Laffers. With two f's.
Every deck is difficult to master, and Enchantress is certainly a deck (see how I didn't say that it's tougher than Thresh? Gosh, you guys can be obnoxious. Play nice. He's talking about our favorite deck. He could be some goon and just be like, "Thresh, Thresh, Oh God I'm cumming!!!" like some other SCG writers, or he could keep on suggesting new stuff [that's us, you dolts] to people with little experience in the matter. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth).
That said, it is just a tinsey tough to get used to. I mean, I remember when Matt Abold (top 8'd GenCon in '06, I think) was like, "Dude - magic is fun. Build this old deck called Enchantress. It just puts permanents into play." So, I tried it on MWS. I couldn't believe, in any situation, that I'd get the criminally high number of cards on the table. But, dude, it happens. Anyone can be like, "Uh... play Exploration, draw three cards. Wow, that's nice." Not everyone can make the decision on what to Grove for during your upkeep turn three to beat Thresh game 3 when there's fifteen minutes left in the round. There are a bunch of decisions that can only be made through playing the deck and making mistakes, and I think that it's pretty freaking awesome that you're getting people to pick up the deck.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Thanks for the suggestions and tips, and <3 that you <3 making lists instead of paragraphs, which is how I organize my thoughts too.
Re: lots of permanents, I was tickled that I sometimes ran out of space on MWS to put cards. The deck really cranks out a lot of perms.
I used LSV's list because I think it's really streamlined into basically being a Confinement/Moat lock deck and because hey, if you don't like the list, you gotta take it up with LSV : )
Note taken on Scrubland + Bayou = Moat. I wasn't too thrilled with the black splash and in a followup article, I'll probably cut it for the Moat. Besides, Moat in Italian is "Fossato" and that's really neat.
I don't think it's that streamlined. Less mana accelerants and more high curve spells make it harder to aggressively pursue the Confinement plan. If that's what you're banking on with the deck, you need at least 8 Explorations/Utopia Sprawls/Wild Growths, fewer 3cc enchantments, and probably more Ground Seals, since those can increase your supportable Confinement trajectory by a full turn.
But it was a fine article to introduce people to the deck.
Also, seriously, someone tell me why people are MDing Sacred Ground. Yeah, LD is really bad for the deck. But who the hell maindecks it? Why are you MDing cards for Stax? And if you were going to MD something, why not Justice(!)?
Of Mr. Tarell's points, I disagree with 3, 5, and 6.
Karmic Justice is a meta-game call. You may need it, you may not. If you're expecting a lot of Landstill, run it.
Two win conditions is fine with 2 Replenish as back up. The third doesn't save you from Earwig, and I don't know why else you'd feel the need to run additional kill conditions.
3 Sterling Groves is fine most of the time. They can be a bit of a hassle to cast, so you usually don't want to choke on them.
Speaking of which, people need to seriously get off the crazy train with this City of Solitude thing. Choke is better 90% of the time.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Great article. It was fun to read, which I appreciate. Well done! :)
I was thinking of Stag for a budget list. The enchantment cc is low, and with all the enchantress effect, you don't even need Sylvan Library to make it worthwhile.
H. of the Stag should shine in Enchantress better than any other deck that abuse it IMO. And H. Stag is better than Sacred Mesa for enchantress unless you abuse the sacrificing of the pegasus.
Say if I am wrong, but enchantress draw 3 cards or more each turn, right? It's almost a 4/4 flying a turn with H. Stag and mid game, 2 for a turn?
Since replenish (answer to serenity) is open in Legacy (unbanning), i think that enchantress could go a long way with the Stag.
Jourdelune
One of the sadfaces about Hoofprints is that you cannot kill your draws with it the way you can with Words of [Noun], and the draws are mandatory. Situations occur where you only find that kill card in the last ten cards of your library; I'd hate to be only able to make two elemental ponies before I decked myself.
So play three. It's amazing man. Also, you shouldn't have gotten yourself into a situation where you have 10 cards left before decking. Not if you have foresight. Was it foreskin? No, couldn't be.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
I LOL'D. Legacy at Worlds was pretty much a joke, every pro just netdecked an awful Thresh or built some jank deck because they didnt have the cards...I mean some guy who was apparently a good pro played an Enlightened Tutor deck ffs...
I guess it was a good read though, the list seemed a bit offbeat to me too but I dont really know Enchantress at all, didnt know it was still a real deck tbh
I think that introducing people to Enchantress is awesome, even if the list is a little questionable. Seems like this was written by somebody not familiar with the Legacy metagame, though.
Also, am I missing the secret posting of match %'s and boarding? Star City went to talk about the next article, and here we're just whining that his list sucks. I want to hear things that will actually improve my game (please).
Yes - I'm Victor Nightingale.
I don't know, maybe the best players in the world know that its sometimes better to have a high chance of winning against most decks and a very low against some other. Also dont' forget that good players are not just attracted to combo but also to blue. Especially in a format where you can easily hardcounter for zero mana.
And if they would really behave this way then they are really cool about losing. After all your xx number of duals you won in several tourneys are nothing in comparison to land a good finish at worlds.
TS Crew
I do not ever mention %s or really numbers of any kind that hint toward matchups. I will tell you subjectively what I think the matchups are favored like, but it is not practically feasible to do the amount of testing and research to give you percentages that I would feel comfortable with. I'd want at least a hundred matches with many different highly skilled opponents for every matchup to feel comfortable giving you numbers. Even then, someone would disagree. I'd rather you take my suggestions about what's important in a match, how easily you will crush/be crushed and apply that as it is.
Could you give me reasons why you think it was written by someone unfamiliar with the Legacy metagame? Would you consider yourself familiar with the Legacy metagame enough to give me tips on how you are informed about it?
Finally, I think this article is chock full of information. You can play Enchantress without Moats, for example, and still have a decent shot, sometimes even pros play good decks worth looking at, sometimes decks fly under the radar, etc. And from a tactical (in the real meaning of the word) sense, I talked about how Exploration is good in later turns to play out Serras Sanctum when you're doing a surging turn, how you can eat up spare mana with Words of War, using Fertile Ground to make red mana, Replenishing back Elephant Grasses or Sterling Groves for the advantage there, etc.
If you're an enchantress expert, this article was not meant for you and wasn't a good use of your time to read. If you're new to Legacy or think Enchantress is just a pet deck that can't perform or want to make a new deck for cheap or introduce a friend to Legacy but don't know how, then this article was for you.
Boarding with the deck is incredibly simple and so intuititve that I didn't think it was worth spending pagespace on, though I suppose I should have. It would have been basically "take out Grasses/Bullets for Chokes against Island decks, take out City of Solitude against decks without Islands, replace with relevant cards."
I'm going to try out maindecking Choke like Spat said and see how that works, I have high hopes for it.
Bovinious, are you referencing Zvi? I have met Zvi and you, sir, are no Zvi.
I think it is worth pointing out that against slow permission like Landstill, and even sometimes Thresh depending on how aggressive the pilot is, it's best to take out your acceleration for more anti-blue cards.
Especially when you run Choke, you want to leave Grass in. The combination is hawt.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
I think Enchantress is a great deck to play right now. Beats Goblins and Thresh pretty easily and it beats every non storm combo deck because it pwns creatures. Against TES you still have a shot if you can resolve a turn 2 Confinement or Rule of Law. I have taken a real interest in the deck.
I don't really like the list just because it has some strange card choices. It was still a good arcticle and described the deck well. Nice job.
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