Okay, I think that we're on two separate lines here. I was talking of Enlightened Tutor as a Wishtarget for Cunning Wish and certainly not mainboard.Originally Posted by Nightmare
The reasoning behind it as a wishtarget: to solve things Cunning Wish can normally not handle or to get something when there's no immediate threat to handle.
Well, I'm not thinking of CoW as cannon - I've cut it before but that was a horrible decission so it is back in... there's a reason that people consider it cannon after all.
There's very little you actually need to counter that you can not handle otherwise (EE, WoG, StoP). Also, in the matchups where you need FoW from turn1 onwards (combo) CoW is pretty bad anyways so that you could just not play it...
Also, playing CoW turn3 assures that you'll get a constant supply of lands to actually play all those expensive, strong spells (with Counterspell backup or Daze proof).
I don't understand this, probably because of my English. I'll interpret the 'put the premium on deck space' as 'streamline' or 'don't include chaff'.
Now with that said, I still don't understand your point: Tolaria West is just way too flexible and actually allows you to cut down on those cards that you need but are only good in some situations (e.g. Wasteland) by increasing the virtual count of them - you actually trim the deck down because it can also get you something else than the thing it replaced, something that is not situationally good because you get to chose what you want.
[QUOTE=Der_imaginäre_Freund;212708]Okay, I think that we're on two separate lines here. I was talking of Enlightened Tutor as a Wishtarget for Cunning Wish and certainly not mainboard.
The reasoning behind it as a wishtarget: to solve things Cunning Wish can normally not handle or to get something when there's no immediate threat to handle. [quote]Tutor is even worse as a Wish target. If there is no immediate threat, why are you Wishing? It's meant as a way to answer threats, not as a pro-active card. Maybe that's the whole problem. Why are you playing proactively? This deck isn't meant to be played that way.
Therapy you naming Force of Will, Survival of the Fittest. Good Game. That's easily the most devastating thing you can see on turn three as a Landstill player. Aside from Tendrils for 20+, of course.There's very little you actually need to counter that you can not handle otherwise (EE, WoG, StoP). Also, in the matchups where you need FoW from turn1 onwards (combo) CoW is pretty bad anyways so that you could just not play it...
It's a three mana, sorcery speed tutor for a land drop. I'm unimpressed every single time I try the card out. Why not just run Intuition and get three lands, since you run Crucible, or land/Crucible/Ruins? At least those are instant speed. In the vast card pool of Legacy, I refuse to believe that's the best use of that slot.Now with that said, I still don't understand your point: Tolaria West is just way too flexible and actually allows you to cut down on those cards that you need but are only good in some situations (e.g. Wasteland) by increasing the virtual count of them - you actually trim the deck down because it can also get you something else than the thing it replaced, something that is not situationally good because you get to chose what you want.
I fail to understand this. Proactive has always been strategically supperior to reactive and if you can drop a Humility now or a Standstill now I don't see that being bad. Why am I Wishing? To prevent all further threats (making full use of my mana and not wasting the turn) or to set up my draw engine (because I know that I can handle near to all other threats via something else than the tutor... obviously if I'm up against Life from the Loam or similar, I won't do this).
Next turn drop a land, EE for 2, pop? Drop 2 lands guaranteed, Humility game? There're always scenarios that you can imagine... also, if your survival opponent has a Cabal Therapy, it becomes very hard for him not to resolve that SotF as he can simply flashback it for your other counterspell prior to playing the SotF. [As an aside, this matchup being not that great overall is another great argument for the inclusion of Humility]
Also as said, if you put your opponent on combo, just don't play the thing!
It's meant to help win all those attrition wars against aggro, aggro control and other control. When you're a little further in the game, it can also do a thing against TES by slowly killing their lands, but thats only a lategame plan (to be executed when you have some significant mana to assure to survive the next turn) to assure that they don't to stupid things with excess mana.
Sure, if you splash green I believe LftL to be better (cheaper, semi-immune to counters, instant synergy with Brainstorm).
Also, this is much more than a sorcery speed tutor for a land... its much more like a tutor for all the lands you'll need and a proactive defense against (mass-)landdestruction. It also helps to prevent colorscrews by recurring your fetchies.
As you are a counterspell deck, it's a bit difficult for me to swallow the idea of you being overly proactive. Also, you aren't wasting a turn by leaving mana open. You play Counter Target Spell, it's a fine plan to bluff them. Tapping low on lands on your turn is usually a poor plan unless you have Force.
I'm talking about Tolaria West, you're talking about Crucible. You have no way to tutor more than once with TW.Sure, if you splash green I believe LftL to be better (cheaper, semi-immune to counters, instant synergy with Brainstorm).
Also, this is much more than a sorcery speed tutor for a land... its much more like a tutor for all the lands you'll need and a proactive defense against (mass-)landdestruction. It also helps to prevent colorscrews by recurring your fetchies.
If you play Humility, there's just not a lot that you'll have to force in the next turn. Also, Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor for other stuff is your option when you have the current situation under control that means that you're at least turn 5-6 - by which you should then also have enough mana for both your ETutored goodie and a Counterspell.
If you drop down a Standstill, you do have some mana open (remember, Cunning Wish -> ETutor is a turn 3-4 play so you're earliest turn4-5) for your Counterspell or at least have a chance of drawing into FoW or your blue card.
Also, bluffing the Counterspell is pretty useless in my opinion: people over here have understood that you just keep on trading 1for1 with your opponents disruption until he's exhausted... and that you'd better start these trades as soon as possible because otherwise you just give them time to recover and draw into relevant stuff/permission.
Oh, yeah, misread that one, sorry.
Adressing Tolaria West, for sure its a 3 mana sorcery speed tutor but this tutor allows you to clear a large proportion (if not the entire) of the board on the next turn [fetching Engineered Explosives] or it allows you to gain a huge quantity of virtual and real card advantage via establishing a lock with Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives or it advances your clock against other control (this argument sucks, but you'll be really, really thankfull for that additional beater against stuff like MUC, once you've secured you don't get hit by those B2Bs [Meddling Mage, Extirpate] - you have to be the aggro deck in that matchup).
Intuition for stuff... sure that's an option and its instant speed too but thats even slower than Tolaria West (if your opponent gives you Academy Ruins) and isn't a land as a backup plan: it takes away slots from the already tight maindeck.
I think that your main problem is that you have to tap out on your turn, but the thing is that you won't always have permission online and that you don't need to counter everything if you can kill it otherwise!
Edit: Don't you love it when The Source is actually plenty active? At least I do. More to come tomorrow.
True. But why reveal that to you're opponent? If I see a Landstill player tap out turn 3 to pull up an EE, that pretty much guarantees I'm in a position to resolve a spell the following turn. Even if you have FoW back up I still will have 3 mana at my disposal to attempt a 1cc and 2cc threat.
I agree with Nightmare with the card pool available there are just much better cards. Intuition jumps out at me as being one of those much better cards. Being an instant is huge in a permission deck, and it's still able to pull up your lands in a pinch if needed.
Cunning Wish into Enlightened Tutor seems very clunky too, 4 mana and it ties up your drawstep is a pretty hefty price to pay. Argivian Find seems better although a more situational/late game, atleast it puts the card to hand so you're not wasting a draw step in addition to the tempo loss.
I don't mind say that I freaking love the idea of Tolaria West. It's a land-drop (in the worst case) and can fetch an array of powerful cards in the right deck. However, as much as I wanted it to work, and as much as I sort of looked the other way when it didn't, I reluctantly dropped TW a few months ago and haven't missed it (and that was when I was running MD Chalices, Wastes, etc.; i.e. more targets). A 3-mana sorcery speed tutor is not what this deck needs. It can't even pitch to Force. If you cut it, I can pretty much guarantee the deck will just flow better and be more consistent.
I agree with Bardo about TW; I tested it in the UGb (Vorosh) build and it annoyed me more than I found it useful. Up till now, I haven't had big problems vs. Blood Moon with my UGBw list (see http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ostcount=1215). I'm actually thinking of taking out the Hydroblasts and BEB in the SB in favor of CoP: Red. Has anyone tested it ?
I have a couple of problems with Cop:Red over Beb/Hblast. You don't get to deal with first turn lackey with Cop: Red, and I realize you have Swords or whatever, but having 4 more is definitely nice. Cop: Red also doesn't destroy Moon, or counter Bwish. Both are pretty good against Landstill if I remember right. I'm not saying Cop: Red is bad, I'm just saying if you want to side it, make sure you're making it better than what you're taking out.
I've also tried and hated Tolaria West. It's a loss of tempo in the early game, and clunky even in the late. Only in the extreme late game does it shine, but by then you've probably already won.
3 Stifles sounds right. I'm probably cutting Wastelands down to two. I'm now running exactly 23 Lands, so I may/may not be able to support Counterbalance, the answer is probably not. However, I will test it some more. If not, the spots can be well used on more control.
Have you guys also noticed that Landstill is becoming more Reactive? Or is that just me, in my meta?
I see many of you do not like tolaria west, but i like it. I mean it tutors up ee, wasteland, ruins, and factories! what other tutors can do that? and even if it is early-mid game wouldnt u rather have a tolaria west rather than a land when your up against a hord of goblins (ee), or perhaps your opponent is currently mana screwed (wasteland). tolaria west doesn't take up a spell slot, but a land slot. So for me, its staying.
SO guys.... let me resume the situation:
Der imagine freund is saying that tolaria west is good, fetches, etc.... gives blue mana, etc....
Some others including Bardo (not a weak player) say that is not needed.... and I personally agree
Now the discussion is moving away from that, and we speak about Cop vs Beb...
It seems to be in a mental-hospital, or looking two deaf people talking each other....LOL
As regard the crucible debate I can say that it's both true, Nightmare and The Imagine freund.
1) Tapping on turn 3 for a crucible vs threhold guess what?? daze! they play 4x.
2) on the other hand fixing and provide constant land drop (expecially strong if you are playing cc4 cards, or more expensive cards like decree or dragon)
3) but wait... land ritual sinkhole...oh that makes crucible slow..they also have vindicate, so it's true Nightmare when saying you keep another fow on turn 3....and that's disadvantage (cricible + fow + blue cards VS vindicate) could be risky if you don't draw more goods.
I could continue endlessly with examples and results showed that some people top8ed with crucible, some with life from the loam, some with 4color color-risky build, others with more traditional UW (sometimes pure uw).
Recently I like UW build because I noticed that:
1) tormod's crypt in my lastest tournament experience was always better than extirpate. You recurs with academy also.
2) Blue blast I think it's more flexible than plague right now.... usefull in more match ups (burns, goblins, red stompy)
So in any case, also in case one wants to play some combinations with wish (is not mandatory!!!), UW has all the answer right now to metagame:
1) stable mana base, magus of moon no problem (wish beb, or stp)
2) life gainer is white
3) graveyard is artifact so ok, can be tested a trick like 1x tormod maideck and enlightened in side (along with some other 1x like humility)
Of course 4c is very raw-power (as results show) but don't be frustated when you lose by yourself when you get stifled, or mana screwed by wasteland or moons...
If you don't have the permission, it is not worth wasting a turn of mana only to bluff it: the good player will always go for the throat as quickly as possible, otherwise he will only allow you to draw into relevant stuff and give you time/mana to cast it.
Also, all these examples are highly situational... there's just not a lot of scary stuf that can happen to you on turn3 that can't be handled via an Engineered Explosives... and if you expect such sheanigans and actually happen to hold a Counterspell, just don't tutor... this is the beauty of Tolaria West - its never dead as you can always drop it as a land.
It pulls up lands or other thing while reducing the density of what you just tutored for in your deck making you more vulnerable as the game continues. Also, Intuition can't help you out of a screw situation - where TW still is a land drop. Seriously, I've never had problems with it coming into play tapped.
So what tempo loss? CWish -> ETutor is the play that you do when you're currently on a neutral board - there's no tempo involved and even if there was I'd be glad to give up a turn and a draw to stick down a bomb like Humility.
Or if you're going to clear your opponents board on the next turn, there's not a lot of tempo loss involved either - you actually have handled the opponent's efford and traded positively so that the lost draw step is neglected by that.
I think this all comes down to a significant difference in playstyles and/or experience with this particular build. I tend to play this more like MWC with a blue splash where you people seem to play it as a MUC with a white splash... I just don't counter everything
Well my targets are Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives and Mishra's Factory - I still really love this card and don't look back on cutting a Wasteland for it because in my oppinion its just better than a Wasteland (for reasons previously mentioned). Also, it has never been bad for me so far in all my testing and competative play.
At least in regards to Landstill, I'm not a total newb either
The thing is that Tormod's Crypt, although cheaper and not needing a splash, comes nowhere near the power of Extirpate: it can't handle Life from the Loam permanently (only like 1-2 copies if you're lucky and your opponent doesn't have a cycler to instand dredge it in responce to you activating it). Also, Extirpate is awesome in the control on control matchups where Tormod's Crypt just does... nothing. It has also some uses in the NQG matchups where denying your opponent of his Goyfs/Gooses is extremely strong.
UW doesn't answer Life from the Loam or other recursion (e.g. Genesis) which totally butcher you if you don't answer them - that's where a black splash, Cunning Wish and Extirpate come in.
Hehe... some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time ;) (i.e. have parallel discussions) - I'm being a moron here...
I have been playing at least three Legacy tournaments (20-30 players) per month for a couple of years now (and testing regularly), so I have a bit of experience (I'm not saying I'm the best player, etc. here, I just want to give you an idea of the sample size of competitive games I played). Although I'm new to Landstill, I've tested the crap out of UGb and UGbw (and actully won a 20 man tourny last week with the latter) and my experience with TW was bad; but as Bardo and others have said, the idea is appealing. Maybe I was unlucky...Some others including Bardo (not a weak player) say that is not needed
I totally agree with that. The main reasons I like the black splash is the stronger Goblins match-up (E. Plague) and the possibility of screwing 'threat lite' decks with Extirpate (Threshold, etc.).UW doesn't answer Life from the Loam or other recursion (e.g. Genesis) which totally butcher you if you don't answer them - that's where a black splash, Cunning Wish and Extirpate come in.
Well, in my metagame the are very few loam deck (sometimes even none), so that Loam isnt' concerning my average "duels".
Genesis is hit by tormod's and they cannot do anything in response and together I hit squee, and all the stuffs they have. Tormod's are superior in all the case in which you need to remove many things, and belive it or not, I had to face for example madness with survival, so you waste 1 extirpate to take 1 wonder, 1 extirpate to take 1 squee, and so on....
With tormod's I would have also shut down completely his circular logic in a crucial turn.
Why loam scares you?? it's not a threat because you also play crucible, so recurring wasteland is a waste of time for them (unless you are playing 4c landsteel of course....But I play UW with 6 basic 6 fetch, I've heard it's a bit more stable, don't you think?).
Are you scared of RG loam??? LOOOOL really with a UW deck like that?
The only situation is if they have a sismic assault in play, in that case usually you would have 2 turns clock.
By the way I'm also playing 3 cunning wish, so it's easy to include 3 extirpate in my side and a couple of black sources in main.
Now plague... very strong!!! LOL only match up: goblin, and it falls completely under their typical sideboard (krosan grip for RG, disenchant for RW). Blue elemental blast is usefull *at least* 4 other match up (RG aggro, red stompy, burn, belcher hitting more than 16 relevant cards).
Can you say that goblin match up is *unwinnable* or *far less winnable* without Plague??
One of the last issue that I understood was the problem of the manabase, and certainly the most stable mana base is UW or UW + black microsplash in the side.
Believe it or not, but Squee is not the threat against Survival based decks: its the Survival in first place and directly after it the Genesis.
Things that Extirpate can do that Tormod's Crypt can't, only in this matchup:
- Turn them into a bad midrange aggro deck by removing their Survival of the Fittes
- Switching off all their disruption via removing all their Cabal Therapies to give you an edge
- Remove their main threats (if they're a threat light version) eg. Tarmogoyf
Also, why would you ever want to Extirpate a Wonder? Your Factories are probably smaller than any of their threats anyways.
The trick with Life from the Loam is that your opponent gets to draw more cards than you do (reccuring the Onslaught cycling lands) which will eventually draw them into more threats than you have solutions for: Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Devastating Dreams, Dark Confidant, Seismic Assault, Nimble Mongoose etc. are all threats you'll have to go 1for1 or at best 2for1 for - a trade that you just can't keep up eternally if your opponent keeps on drawing 3 a turn where you draw 1.
Long story short: Life from the Loam will allow them to out-cardadvantage you while maintaining their aggression and putting you under pressure with manadisruption... and therefore Aggro Loam, 43Lands, Land Ho! and the like are amongst the worst matchups you can get - unless you can get rid of their primary motor of Card Advantage to turn them into mediocre midrange decks which become relatively easy to beat.
Well, Engineered Plague is not only usefull in the Goblins matchup. It's actually very decent against Cephalid Breakfast (kills their Dark Confidants and Cephalid Illusionists if set on Wizards), Empty the Warrens and random stuff like Enchantress (put it on Human). Also it does something against all those random tribal decks you'll encounter (Elves is not that bad) and against some Fish builds (again put it on Wizards).
Blue Elemental Blast has its uses, but I just prefer Engineered Plague because its a permanent solution and not only a counter to one of their threats - remember: Goblins has plenty of must handles so that you can't counter them all.
Let me be really, really clear here: Tolaria West looks awesome on paper but was a dud when I tested it seriously. Again, on paper, and the version I was playing it in, Tolaria West could fetch all of the following: Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Academy Ruins, Maze of Ith and Tormod's Crypt (sideboard). Even with all of those options, it was still bad--being slow, clunky, sorcery-speed, CIPT Wasteland-target. I love the art and I love the idea of the card, but barring some way to abuse it in a combo engine, I think it's too slow for Legacy, at least Legacy Landstill.
I really wanted Tolaria West to work, since it opens up so many lines of play, but it didnt't, for me.
Re: Engineered Plague. It's principally for Goblins, but that doesn't mean it doesn't shine in a lot of other match-ups too. However, if the odds of running into Gobs in a tourney were not much better than 5%, I would strongly consider dropping them.
I'm not saying Plague must be in every sideboard in every metagame, I thought that bit was obvious. Of course if no one plays Goblins in your meta it's not that hot. As was mentioned by Der_imaginäre_Freund, it's useful in other match-ups (see for example Mori's Worlds deck, which included 2 E. Plague maindeck for a field he predicted would be composed of Breakfast, Goblins and Belcher (EtW)).
It depends what you put instead, on the builds you're referring to, etc.Can you say that goblin match up is *unwinnable* or *far less winnable* without Plague??
Actually, I was referring to builds like the 'old' Terrageddon (GW with maybe a black splash) and Slide.dec. GR-Loam seems easier but recurring threats can be annoying/tricky.Are you scared of RG loam??? LOOOOL really with a UW deck like that?
I think Der_imaginäre_Freund covered most of what I was going to post.
P.S.: Justin (Osse), I'm testing Cop:Red instead of BeB/Hydroblasts these days but I think I'll revert to BeB/Hydro. In particular, I agree with your points but I'd rather test and then analyse then debate it to death. Issues found in testing: Removing threats > preventing damage, especially when 4 Goyfs + 4 Factories are your main kill conditions (i.e. no evasion) and you want to win the round in less than 50 minutes. Also, CoP can get mana intensive in certain match-ups. The only match-up CoP:Red could be good would be against Sligh decks, which I don't see a lot these days.
I wrote this big long response but it all comes down to this-
IF you are playing 4cstill and your having problems laying humility in the white based versions your playing the deck wrong. Ive tested these matchups over and over again by now and honestly decks like canadian thresh strive on you getting blasted in the early game and then not recovering quick enough. You need to know when the right time to play into the counter war and when to not. If you land humility in the thresh matchup it should be over g1. Gt you side in and get rid of their 8 creature deck and its goodnight.
Stryfe said something about Engineered plague against goblins being bad. Are you on crack? You still whipe their board even if they grip.disenchant it. If they don't you win. With cards like humility, deed, EP, hydro blast you better win that matchup. I mean you have swords on top of that. Dude seriously inless their siding in equal amounts of enchantment removal, your winning this matchup plain and simple.
Nightmare said something about t3 crucible in one of his recent posts. I can honestly tell you I don't cast t3 crucible inless my opponent is stuck and I see it that early. Otherwise I build my base and wait for their eot step, wish for something relavent and keep dropping my lands. Thats the most important part of the entire deck. LAND. If you drop t3 crucibles no only are you giving your opponent the go ahead turn pretty much you are also asking them to counter your spell or remove it, and your also saying that u like to keep hands with 3 or less land, which in some cases are good, but in my opinion keeping 3-4 land is idealistic for these decks. Anything short or exceeding that should be mulliganed inless you have outs like brainstorm or eternal dragon on two land.
Just for refference, here's a build similar to what he's talking about:
The Savannah and Scrubland make double white so much easier to obtain.Code://// 4c Cunning Landstill (by Marius Hausman and Clemens Wolff) /// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (25) 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 2 Windswept Heath 4 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Tropical Island 1 Scrubland 1 Savannah 1 Plains 1 Island 1 Tolaria West 4 Mishra's Factory 1 Academy Ruins 1 Wasteland // Winconditions (5) 1 Life from the Loam 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Eternal Dragon 2 Decree of Justice // Permission (8) 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will // Card Advantage (10) 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 2 Cunning Wish // Removal (12) 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Pernicious Deed 2 Humility 2 Engineered Explosives /// Sideboard (15 cards) 3 Engineered Plague 4 Meddling Mage 3 Extirpate 1 Blue Elemental Blast 1 Pulse of the Fields 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Enlightened Tutor 1 Seed Spark
That's why I like Life from the Loam over Crucible of Worlds in the 4c versions (or in any with green): it just assures your land drops so much more reliably compared to Crucible of Worlds as you can just recur it and play it in the early game to not bother much about land destruction or screw. It's obviously worse in the lategame, but if you reached that you've probably won anyways.
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