I used to play a lot of Pox at one point but had given up on it a long time ago because the win conditions back in Onslaught blew. Now that we have Tombstalker to work with, I thought I'd check this thread out. With the introduction of Lorwyn, we got a new class of cards, the Planeswalkers. Back in the day, Pox abused the fact that it's namesake cards didn't touch artifacts. My question to you all is whether it can do the same with the black planeswalker, Liliana Vess. It's 5 cc to be sure but it definitely solves the age old problem of sweeping the board and having no threats. Pox is also really good at keeping creatures off the board so Vess is not it danger. As far as cons go, 5 mana is a lot. Playing any more than 3 mana sources at one time is usually too many. Dark Ritual is also an option. Has anyone gotten around to playtesting it? Vess has recently done well in Death Cloud decks running around in Extended.
~Tog
@Shabbaman re: Damping Matrix: Interesting idea, but the problem we're looking to solve is Enchantments, not Artifacts & Creatures...
@Tog:
Personally, I think Death Cloud is a stupid card. It costs FOUR mana () to do the same thing that Smallpox does for TWO (
). The way my Pox deck runs, I don't want to pay more mana than I have to for ANYTHING, much less symmetric sacrifice. /end Death_Cloud_Rant (yes I know you're not advocating it, I just had to rant
)
Vess? If I could get one out for free, sure I'd love to use her.is a HUGE investment, though. The questions are:
1. What would she replace? She isn't a win condition on her own--cutting creatures wouldn't make sense with her big ability.
2. What role would she fill? Her discard is opponent's choice, so she's more like a Pox effect than a Hymn or Thoughtseize. The Tutor effect is pretty nice. Sometimes the big ability would be helpful... depending on your deck & your opponent's deck design.
3. Can I actually get her out? Five is a LOT of mana for a Pox deck. /harp_harp
4. What matchups does she help?
5. Is she "Win More"?
Hello to you all,
I’ve been running Pox as a pet deck ever since smallpox was printed and it gave me some average/good result in tournaments. I really want to see it move on the established deck forum ( because I think this deck worth it ). Lot of progess have been done since this thread begun and I’d like to share a few thoughts about this :
Dark ritual doesn’t belong : this has been discussed over and over and mox diamond is far more superior. I could advocate for this for hours.
Totem is definitely to slow and cannot block. Out.
2xMishra + 2x mutavault = good split to dodge needles
Tombstalker : haven’t tested it but it definitely looks great. Bit scared of weird interaction it may have with nether spirit though.
The rack doesn’t belong. I personally runned it for a long long time and didn’t want to give it up but it is true that is was sometime a deadcard. However, I am convinced that the deck needs a non-creature kill. If the rack gave me so many games, it’s because sometime creature cannot make it. I’ll definitely give a shot to underworld dreams which looks really good on the paper and could fill this gap.
Liliana = too expensive. You basically cannot cast it without crucible on board so it’s win more.
Chimeric idol: good but mishra /mutavault is better. And you cannot run both.
Sensei divining top: I love this card. This deck needs card quality in the control matchup and top help to make pox/SP more effective.
Let me know what you think.
Hi there. If Pox.dec is going to reach upward, you should submit some tournament reports where you've done well with it. Oh, and a decklist.
And I can advocate the opposite position all day -- by all means, let's discuss it. My build doesn't run Crucible, so I don't feel comfortable pitching lands when my opponent won't be losing any. Do I mana screw myself? Sometimes. I also get Ritual-Thoughtseize-Hymn on turn 1 a lot.Dark ritual doesn’t belong : this has been discussed over and over and mox diamond is far more superior. I could advocate for this for hours.
Man-lands: I wouldn't run them as Land, rather as Spells, as i need as much
Actually, being able to remove creature cards from your graveyard with Tombstalker HELPS your Nether Spirit come back. Tombstalker is great, by the way. Try him out.Tombstalker : haven’t tested it but it definitely looks great. Bit scared of weird interaction it may have with nether spirit though.
Liliana: Yes, too expensive and too win-more.
SDT: I should probably run these. I said I was going to, but I replaced them with Powder Kegs to help vs. Tokens and other things...
This is the real discussion--non-creature kill.The rack doesn’t belong.
I’ll definitely give a shot to underworld dreams
I freely admit that The Rack is a completely dead card in some matchups--I side it out in that case. However, vs. Decks That Empty Their Hand (Stompy, Goblins, Burn, a few others), I don't regret having them. Two racks when opponent is stuck on 2 cards is good times for me. Like I said, though, I freely side them out when the opponent always has many cards in hand (WHY DID THEY BAN BLACK VISE???????)
Interestingly enough, against those decks with ever-full hands, Underworld Dreams shines. (Brainstorm yourself for 3 damage? Be my guest. SDT for another card? Ping! Enchantress before they get a Words out? How many cards CAN you draw a turn?)
The worst matchup for this deck in my experience is... Counters absolutely devestate us. I'm not sure what to do about it though. It's one of the reasons I like having Dark Ritual in my toolbox.
Is blue really that bad? I always thought that Pox and Sui-black where good against blue( I'm talking about control here.) They can't keep up with your disruption and it's easy to keep them low on mana. Threshold is another story probably. But you have enough removal for there creatures.
On some of the cards.
I think the real discussion is Crucible or not. I don't play it, but I didn't put alot of effort in it. I liked that it only played disruption, mana or wincondition so kept Crucible and SDT out. I don't know if it's the best choice.
With Crucible you play Mox Diamond, without Dark Ritual. So if/when we finish the discussion of Crucible, we'll finish the discussion of Mox Diamond/Dark Ritual.
I don't know if there is end to the discussion though. It's probably a metagame call. I find Crucible quite weak against Threshold(probably gets countered and can't make a wastelock) Weak against Goblins( to slow) Quite weak against Landstill( with their cantrips they have a larger change to find it first) Weak against Ichorid( to slow) Weak against Breakfast( does nothing). So in this metagame I would't play it.
I do have a question about Smallpox, how good is it? If you have cards in hand and lands, you only will play cardparity. The only advantage is when it's your last card in hand, and your opponent has cards in hand, lands and creatures. If you have a Tombstalker out, it's even harder to get advantage out of your Small Pox. Now I know that Sinkhole and Hymn aren't cardadvantage too, but it doesn't give your opponent the choice.
And Extirpate?? It looks hot and I hate to see it when I'm playing against black most of the time, but it doesn't affect the game state most of the time.
BB
I'm starting to think splashing for Loam would be a better idea than Crucible:
- It only costs two mana (big)
- You can discard it to Poxen for fun and profit
- Difficult to deal with
It may seem slower, but in reality, you probably only need to resolve Loam once to seal the game: you have lands, they do not.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
green also gives Genesis, Gigapede and moreover Pernicious Deed
edit:
and trying something similar to this one? it is completely unviable or should take a spot?
// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [OD] Cabal Pit
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [B] Bayou
// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [JU] Genesis
// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Pox
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [10E] Underworld Dreams
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [B] Sinkhole
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Play better fetches,like Delta and Mire.Also,cut genesis and Witness and that Forest too.Then,run 4 Mox Diamond.Originally Posted by idraleo
Counterspells? Yes, they're a bad matchup if they can get 'ahead' of you and hold onto their counters. If you get a good draw and are on the play, though, you can certainly disrupt them -- so call it 40-60 in their favor. Those 40% wins will be blowouts, and the 60% losses will be close. The deck almost never loses *badly* except vs. really good Goblin & Burn hands. Again, to reiterate, hand quality is what skews matchups for and against Pox.dec.
I agree that Crucible does nothing except give you more land, which may or may not be helpful, depending on what else you're drawing. Although, I don't run Wastelands either, preferring to stay mono
Here's the problem with Mox Diamond: You need to run too much land to make them viable. There's a "How many lands do I need to run Mox Diamond" thread, and the MINIMUM suggestion is 24, optimal suggestion is 25, and some even advocate 26. So let's say we run 24 lands+4 Mox Diamonds... That only leaves 32 slots for everything else.I don't like that. I don't like that at all. Instead, I run 19 land and 4 Dark Rituals, leaving 37 slots for business.
Smallpox is the MVP of the deck. Without Smallpox being printed, I'd be playing Sui or some Demon Stompy or something.
The thing about smallpox (and big Pox, too) is that the deck is designed to expect it, while the opponent is generally not. The skill of piloting the deck is knowing when and when not to small/Pox. In a nutshell--it's best when they have one creature/land out and you have two. But it's alot more involved than that, especially with big Pox.
I've relegated Extirpate to the sideboard to round out the Graveyard Hate suite along with Leyline of the Void. You're right -- it doesn't effect the game state unless they're recurring Loam or something like that.
@idrelao: I cannot deny that Pernicious Deed is probably the best spell in Magic right now. Myself, I hate getting color-screwed, so I'm the monofor others is a recipie for color-screw.
Let us know how it plays.
Yeah,Genesis+Witness is indeed very strong,but not in a monoblack deck with a minor green splash.Playing a first turn fetch,Diamond,Loam is very good.I haven't really tested this in a Pox deck,but it seems strong if you are running Wasteland/Manlands.The manabase could be somewhat like this:
4 Mire
2 Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Bayou
8 Swamp
4 Mox Diamond
Is that lacking in black mana in your opinion?
Green splash also gives access to Krosan Grip
It's probably got enough
I've never been real impressed with Mishra's Factory as a win condition in Pox. Maybe I'm playing wrong, though
Hello,
Before answering questions, Here is my current list :
First my decklist :
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 tourach
4 sinkhole
4 thoughtsize
3 tombsalker
2 nether spirit
3 powder keg
3 sensei divining top
3 crucible of world
3 mox diamond
3 urborg
3 wasteland
2 mishra’s factory
2 mutavault
3 polluted delta
10 swamp
SB :
4 pithing needle
4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
3 underworld dream
I actually never played this list (did't have the chance, quite busy these days) but this is what I think is best based on my experience and new card introduced.
One thing to mention though, I stopped running innocent blood and darkblast (2+2), so this list might be a bit light in anti-creature.
So to answer questions:
Ok so my main argument for mox is based on this golden rule of pox deck : You shall almost NEVER have more than 3 lands on the table, because it is not counterproductive with pox (sac 2 land) while you MUST create as much CA as possible AND not manascrew yourself. So mox allows:And I can advocate the opposite position all day -- by all means, let's discuss it. My build doesn't run Crucible, so I don't feel comfortable pitching lands when my opponent won't be losing any. Do I mana screw myself? Sometimes. I also get Ritual-Thoughtseize-Hymn on turn 1 a lot.
mirror, decks running rishadan port, or winter orb post board etc...
- to have 4 mana available => allows to dodge daze on pox casting, combine 2 2cc spells the same turn, be able to cast 2cc and attack with mishra etc.... dark ritual allows to do this only one time which in my opinion is not good.
- if you have wasteland/mishra/vault and no urborg, you cannot cast pox which requires BBB.
- helps you survive against deck with mana disruption strategy like pikula,
So overall, I think that the small extra amount of speed and the short term card advantage DR provides compared to mox really doesn't worth it in the mid/long run. Which is what is important because you have no means to reach short term victory. But maybe it's because I have a more controllish vision of the deck. So no need to throw your all hand at your opponent face T1. You will just both get in top deck mode ealier than usual. And mox still gives decent start.
Then, as outlined by Benie Dederios, there is the question of crucible or not witch make the cut even clearer. For me this is no question: I go for at least 2 maindeck no matter what. I you wonder about the power of wastelock, then explain me why dragon stompy runs both 4 blood moon & 4 blood magus ? Destroying non basics is just format eater. Not to mention recurrable mishra, possibility to extend over 3 lands, card quality engine with fetch + SDT, discarding lands without complex on pox/SP....
Then, this has already been dicussed earlier: loam is too mana intensive and you cannot you have no draw engine to keep it going. effectively. Also I don't think you can afford to have a weak manabase as pox also affects you. As Mujjadady already said, I also find myself color-srewed too often playing monoblack !!!!!
Honestly speaking, the idea of slashing has been already discussed many time on this thread, and was always discarded. There is a thread for the white splash (vaka pox) in the established deck forum but splashing turnaround the whole concept of the deck in my opinion simply because the core spells are only black mana and as you sac you own lands, playing 4 dual + mox just isn't enought to make it fly, especially with all the non-basic hate and land destruction in the format (basically when the hunter becomes the prey
Wouldn't four Factories be better then this split?
But you lose a land to cast Mox Diamond, so it becomes tougher to judge when to mulligan. Also, many decks that Pox matches poorly against have maindeck artifact hate or sweepers like Keg -- far fewer decks run land destruction.
- If I need to cast Pox, I'm not worried about going down to 2 Swamps--I've already determined that I have to do so. Mox Diamond is -1 land, -1 artifact for 1 recurring mana. Dark Ritual is -1 card for THREE mana. This can be an absolute bomb in the usual ways. I've even cast Pox Turn ONE on the draw before.
Then are your colorless cards helping or hurting your overall strategy?
Rishadan port? I thought you ran Wasteland--why are you scared of Rish Port? Winter Orb? Are you running a FAST Pox deck? I don't think so...
With a hand full of discard, land destruction, and (in my version) Hypnotic Specter, I absolutely want to throw as much of it at my opponent as early as I can! Discard, Land D & Hyppy is black control.
Other than recurring factory, crucible, in my opinion, is just a weak
I think Wasteland & Factory is why you're colorscrewed sometimes. These cards need to be thought of as SPELLS not LAND.
Yet you run 10 non-basics (and 3 fetches)? Ouch.Honestly speaking, the idea of slashing has been already discussed many time on this thread, and was always discarded. There is a thread for the white splash (vaka pox) in the established deck forum but splashing turnaround the whole concept of the deck in my opinion simply because the core spells are only black mana and as you sac you own lands, playing 4 dual + mox just isn't enought to make it fly, especially with all the non-basic hate and land destruction in the format (basically when the hunter becomes the prey
Well, the white splash (Vaka Pox) works so incredibly well because of Vindicate (and Ghostly Prison).
Vindicate is another 4 land destruction spell. But best of all, it can answer all sorts of nastiness that the monoblack version has absolutely no answer to (Crucible, Planeswalkers and a bunch of others).
Ghostly Prison shuts off your opponent's attack phase completely 9 times out of 10.
Hmmm I kinda disagree....
Yes sure it's very though to judge mulligan...but i get over it...somehow.But you lose a land to cast Mox Diamond, so it becomes tougher to judge when to mulligan. Also, many decks that Pox matches poorly against have maindeck artifact hate or sweepers like Keg -- far fewer decks run land destruction.
About powder keg, what deck are you thinking about ? I myself rarely had this problem. Guess my opponent thought it was kind of lousy to trade pk for mox . But ok i guess this can be a problem (usually solved siding needles)
Well I'm. Because it just hurts chaining several pox/SP several turn in a row.If I need to cast Pox, I'm not worried about going down to 2 Swamps--
Great. You have 2 cards in hand and 0 land in play, Your opponent has at leqst 3 cards, 4 if he did't play any creature turn 1...... doesn't sound like great move to me.I've even cast Pox Turn ONE on the draw before.
Allright let's be serious for one second. Do you really think you can afford not to play wasteland ? Do you realize the amount of shit it deals with ? How nervous your opponent gets when he sacs his fetch, wondering if he should get a basic land rather than his dual ? How can you think you can disrupt manabase with only 12 land destruction, 8 of them affecting you as well? I can understand you are nostalgic of strip mine but geez....Then are your colorless cards helping or hurting your overall strategy?
For mishra, the question was raised earlier whether to play it rather than chimeric but ever since urborg was printed, there has been some kind of concensus that mishra was better, tempo wise. As soon as your opponent is paralysed and there is no need for more to disrupt, you can attack. You don't have to first drop your threat then attack.
T1 mountain vial, T2 port, T3 wasteland..... does it look familiar ?Rishadan port? I thought you ran Wasteland--why are you scared of Rish Port?
What do you call fast ? I fast is winning only on goldfish hand or when your opponent is already manascrewed, no I don't run fast pox deck and I'd be curious to see what it looks like.Are you running a FAST Pox deck? I don't think so...
One card also I forgot to mention which gave me nightmares was parallax tide (just to mention).
Pox is not MBC and running hippy is a mistake; The whole idea of pox is to make it non_symetrical and making opponent anticreature useless. If not, run pikula (with bob, hippy, shade)With a hand full of discard, land destruction, and (in my version) Hypnotic Specter, I absolutely want to throw as much of it at my opponent as early as I can! Discard, Land D & Hyppy is black control.
Fine...spells that count in your landdrop, cannot be countered, cannot be duressed/thoughtseized, produce black mana with urborg, recurred with crucible, not to be sac to pox as creature...but spells allright i guessI think Wasteland & Factory is why you're colorscrewed sometimes. These cards need to be thought of as SPELLS not LAND.
well I don't overextent over 3 lands so I guess i can afford it.Yet you run 10 non-basics (and 3 fetches)? Ouch
No, what I meant is that there are not any fast Pox decks.
I disagree. Pox IS MBC, in its own way. And Tombstalker, Nether Spirit and manlands are vulnerable to removal, too, so I don't get the second point. Emptying out the opponent's hand is one of the goals, and Hyppy helps. By running only swamps, I make my opponent's Wastelands and Blood Moons useless.
I mean, in building the manabase for a mono
You've made me think about your points, though. "The testing continues..."
Under no circumstance is The Rack and Underworld Dreams optimal in this deck.
Not using wasteland just so you can evade blood moon and wasteland is illogical. Wasteland taps for colorless. With blood moon, it taps for red. Either way, wasteland will still fuel generic mana costs. And I have never had the luxury of wasting a wasteland or having an opponent waste mine -- they're usually used up on duals.
Bottomline is, wasteland will NOT increase your vulnerability to either blood moon or opposing wastes.
Oh and I'm not a big fan of hippy. We want our win cons to either hit for 5, evade pox or have the ability to come back from the grave. Hippy doesn't do any of these.
I've rotated UWD out. Sometimes it's nice, but sometimes it's not. Its main problem is that it's not high-pressure.
I'm experimenting with different things in The Rack slot, too.
Hyppy is more of a control card that doubles as a wincon. I've swapped Innocent Blood for Diabolic Edict (more for the instant-speed than for the symmetry), so evading pox isn't much of a concern. Also, it attracts Swords to Plowshares, etc., like a magnet, clearing them out of the opp's hand for Tombstalker to land...
...I don't know... I just don't like Wasteland... In part, it IS Strip Mine nostalgia. It's not that it's a nonbasic land (bloodmoon/counterwastelands) --where did I say that? Don't know what I was thinking if I did-- it's that it takes a land-drop in a land-starved deck, and it taps for colorless.
You were sorta implying it. Never mind if that wasn't what you intended to say.
Wastland is teh nutz in Pox. Try playing around with them for a while and you'll see why they are auto-includes.
Around a page ago, you asked me about my thoughts on a mono-black build...pardon me for the glacially slow reply. I think a mono-black build can be competitive since you get more mana stability...however a splash into white shouldn't be discounted since the ability to remove problem artifacts/enchantments is pretty important. I guess is really depends on your metagame...if there's a lot of stuff (solitary confinement, crucible of worlds, aether vial, etc.) out there in your meta that can't be answered by a mono-black list, then splash.
My current list for posterity's sake:
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
4 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
3 Crucible of Worlds
I think I can go down to 2-3 Urborgs if wastelands become a problem...I just never had that much of a problem running four. Dunno. I'm currently trying out whether the deck can run with only 23 lands as opposed to 24. So far the difference has been unnoticeable.
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