@ your linky stuff:
I know that the deck had success in the past. That wasn't what I was asking for. My question was basically if it is smart to play with the splash and if it improves Matchups. Because the last like 30 posts were either a discussion about which blue tutor or just a decklist - oftentimes including ridiculous cardchoices.
My sideboard looks like this by the way:
4 Chalice
4 Armageddon
4 Crusher
3 Ancient Grudge
If I'd splash blue then only very light with Intuition in the place of Gamble. Intuition is obv. more expensive but fetches three Lands or two Lands and Loam or SAFE Manabond. Sounds good to me. Everything else (these Artifact Ruins tech, too) changes the deckplan too much.
But - 4 Gamble + 4 Intuition and the adding of 2-3 Blue duals and one more fetch seems reasonable. I dislike Chalices in the Side as they eat space and you'll probably loose to Combo anyway. Armaeddon isn't that tech too imho. Got to get tested.
Blue list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [B] Taiga
4 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Keldon Megaliths
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
// Spells
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [TE] Intuition
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [TSP] Pull from Eternity
SB: 4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
If Tundra or Volcanics should be played can be discussed. Maybe we should play one more fetchland, too.
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
The problem with Intuition is:
Practically it can only search for lands, if you play against anything with a force.
Because if you search for 3 Manabonds, you'll get one in hand, it gets countered... end of story.
That's why i'd still go with Gamble. You need this enchantment more than any land in the deck.
And your nasty Enchantment won't get countered if you search it with Gamble...? If the opponent has a counter, he'll counter the Intuition, because with Intuition you're much more dangerous without Exploration/Manabond as you can tutor up 3 Manlands or 3 Ports that will lock the opponent out of the game. I think that Intuition is >>....>>>> Gamble in this deck.
Ooops my bad. I was building the list out of the my head and I forgot all about the black source.
I believe the traditional list runs the ff. as the core cards
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 Mulch
3-4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
Of course the remaining are a mix of manlands, fetches, waste, source and control elements.
Then why not run both?The problem with Intuition is:
Practically it can only search for lands, if you play against anything with a force.
Because if you search for 3 Manabonds, you'll get one in hand, it gets countered... end of story.
That's why i'd still go with Gamble. You need this enchantment more than any land in the deck.
I run intuition in place of mulch and not in place of gamble. Mulch _is_ the weakest card in the deck so the obvious choice is to replace it with something better, that is where Intuition comes in.
Intuition could _never_ replace the role that gamble plays in this deck, Gamble helps you consistently play a turn 1/2 Manabond and also helps you get LftL engine going as early as turn 2.
But Intuition certainly does a better job than Mulch. Mulch would only help you dig for answers, and does not certify that you'll get the answers you need. While Intuition would certainly get you what you need.
And also, intuition was never meant to search for Manabond or Exploration, its there to search for LftL + Lands.
If you're discussing whether Intuition/Crusher/whatever should be played you should focus more on what the deck actually doesn't like to see. I don't care if my opponent does or does not side out his creature removal or Force an Intuition target. If the only things I have to fear are creature removal and Forces, I'll probably win anyway. So, let's look at the deck's problems and ways to solve them:
1) Combo
Can't actually be solved, ideas to improve this matchup are Chalice and Thoughtseize/Duress in the board.
2) Blood Moon
If it hits, you need Ray of Revelation to be in your hand or in your graveyard. If it's not there, you lost. You could still cast Burning Wish, but good luck finding a red enchantment removal. An idea might be to start playing basic forests and Tranquility in the Wishboard. It also might be a good reason to play Countryside Crusher: just cast him and win anyway.
3) Magus of the Moon
See 2), but Burning Wish targets are easier. Devastating Dreams comes to mind.
4) Back to Basics
See 2). Ray of Revelation shines here, because Back to Basics are usually backed up by Forces. Engineered Explosives also helps.
5) Extirpate
Removes Loam. Pull from Eternity is interesting, but quite narrow. However, there's only Chalice @ 1 left.
6) Leyline of the Void
Shuts down Loam and Crusher. You really need to play enchantment removal.
7) Chalice of the Void @ 2
No, Ancient Grudge is not an answer. Neither is Burning Wish. You might consider playing Engineered Explosives.
8) Yixlid Jailer
Jailer is seeing more and more play. Barbarin Ring / Keldon Megaliths can take care of him, so can Burning Wish.
Whenever you build the deck you should ask yourself first how you are going to answer those problems. For example, let's look at Joon's list:
1) 4 Chalice in the board. Obviously doesn't do that much.
2) 1st game scoop. 2nd game play Crusher and try winning on the back of a single creature = bad.
3) See 2)
4) See 2)
5) 4 Pull from Eternity in the board, 4 Intuitions main to fetch it, 4 Chalice in the board = good.
6) No answer, so let's just play Manland Aggro without Monasteries = bad.
7) See 6), but with Monasteries and Crushers = probably not that bad. But not good, either.
8) Intuitionable Megaliths, possibility to go Crusher+Manland-Aggro = quite good.
So 5) and 8) are good, 7) is acceptable and the rest is horrible. Go and test the list against Dragon Stompy / MUC / Faerie Stompy with sideboard B2B / a deck that draws into Leyline postboard / a deck that plays Blood Moon and you will have bad results. A deck that loses to combo is acceptable but a deck that loses to combo AND the ones listed above is not. I have yet to see a list for a "general meta" which includes answers for all these 8 questions without sacrificing consistency.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
So when exactly did people stop playing Riftstone Portal in 43 lands?
Seems to me that Burning Wish into enchantment removal wouldn't be a big deal...
--DC
You're right, I've totally forgotten about that. However, if you're not lucky enough to dredge the Portal, it requires Gamble/Intuition -> Portal, a way to discard Portal, then Burning Wish/Gamble/Intuition/lucky topdeck -> removal. I don't think you'll manage to do that consistently.
To prevent questions:
So it works in any case. Had to look it up myself.212.6e If an effect changes a land’s type to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Has anyone begun testing Scapeshift in this deck? It has the ability to win you the game, tutor up whatever card you need (into play) make threshold for Manlands, and thin out all the garbage you absolutely do not want to draw. In short, it seems like it's a card worth testing.
I haven't tested it, but looking at the card I'd say:
- Scapeshift might actually help you when the Loam engine is turned off by Leyline, Extirpate or Chalice. It's no engine, but it's a one-shot that is more powerful than one 10 Lands in play+Loam+Thicket-turn. The "Manland-aggro"-plan can be quite effective that way.
- Saying "tutor up whatever card you need" is just misleading. It won't do anything against those nasty enchantments, nor Magus.
- It can be Burning Wished for. Seriously, Burning Wish should get more attention.
Conclusion: Scapeshift has to be tested thoroughly against decks packing Loam-hate. If it wins games without Loam, it's worth an inclusion. Still, I can't see it being maindeck material.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
How can scapeshift do this?
I just started testing the deck, burn seems kinda hard, what's the plan against burn decks?
Generally, the same against Combo: 4x Chalice of the Void in the board.
At least, that's my solution. Zuran Orb is another to consider.
-T
Using of Mox Diamond solves all troubles with B2B and Moons
It does absolutely not solve all problems with those two cards. It gives you the possibility to cast a Burning Wish finding a solution for one of the two. But still you first of all have to draw the Burning wish and it mustn't be countered (In case of B2B). Just with a Mox diamond in play and some great mountains or tapped lands you will still be in a very bad position, even if you are able to cast all the useless Explorations and Manabonds in your hand then.
It allows to cast Ray of Revelation with it's flashback.
+It allows to cast wish or LftL on 1-st turn
+much more good teches
This isn't exactly super-secret tech, but wouldn't a good answer to a bunch of those problems be Seismic Assault? Because it's castable under the Moon effects, ignores graveyard hate, and is a serious threat because it can deal a ton of damage when 2/3rds of the cards in the deck are lands. Meanwhile, you can wish up some sort of random answer like Apocalypse.
Assault can make ~2 damage per turn if you can't use LFTL
Yeah, but you've also got all those extra lands in your hand that there's no real use playing under the Moon.
So with all the cards people are talking about sideboarding or changing from the main deck, lets see a deck listing that proves to be more playable. Every deck has weaknesses so the point of pointing them out is just a bit stupid unless it happens to be in that persons meta. The origional seems fine but looks a bit lacking. I dont know it just might be me.
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