Then run Dismiss and get the same effect.Originally Posted by idraleo
I think you miss the point - it was for one Plains and one Swamp. Something like:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
14 Island
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Ya deck thinning indeed.
I prefer to play a 52 card deck than a 60 one. Don't you? I never got mana screwed in the matches i played so far.
I hardly care about life loss. even if i am at 1, i can win matches. As long as i don't draw useless card for the current situation.
fetches have been MATHEMATICALLY proven to have an almost non-existent effect on the library.
I think you miss the point: Cryptic Command got 3 blue mana in the cmc, and if you play fetches and doublesplash the better way to use Cryptic is to put it into your album and sell it for 10$. Even if you don't go ever on swamp or plains, more of the times you want to took at least 1 or 2 pieces of splash to ensure you will be able to play EE from 0 to 3; probably you'll go and fetch for islands even if you have 1 splash piece on board and other fetches in hand.
Try to think a scenario where you play simoultaneously EE, double splash, Cryptic and your mu is against pikula: did you fetch on splash leaving few island as the perfect target for vindicate and\or sinkholes or did u go to fetch islands and let EE useless? In each case you got some dead card in hand or you're forced to choose between different ways to deal with the mu.
I'm not saying that CC or EE or fetches sucks by theyrself, but that is not good to play they in the same building.
3 is the correct number of slots that should be devoted to win-conditions. Any more than that and you risk drawing one when you neither need nor want one, and any less than that and you risk not drawing one soon enough to make a difference (or having them neutralized through random crap like Meddling Mage or Pithing Needle, admittedly neither of which are exceptionally likely).
I don't like Cryptic Command period in this deck, no matter what the build, but I can assure you it does not belong in Nearly MUC, or whatever the hell we're calling that now. Frankly, I'm more or less positive it has no place in MUC period, but in the specific example of Nearly MUC it has no place there. The list is tight enough as it is and it doesn't need a utility effect for 4 mana. That's what Cunning Wish and the splash is for in the first place.
On the other hand, that happens to be my reasoning for not liking Cryptic Command in general. It's a 4 mana utility effect. It doesn't win the game, it doesn't provide card-advantage, and it is pretty inefficient for what it does in Legacy. It isn't even particularly good at providing tempo because of its mana cost and it takes up slots that could be devoted to faster, and therefore better, cards.
What do you guys think of Guile as a win condition/control card? He seems strong when he hits the field but is prone to removal.
Thoughts?
see sig.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
@Kadaj
Cryptic is a 4cc spell that became useful in each game, and at least is a counterspell effect that cantrips by itself. Probably your interpretation of "tempo" is different from mine and you've got a different way of play this deck, but when i first saw Cryptic i read this flavour text: "Hi, i'm a 4cc spell that always avoids counterbalance and always did a 2x1. Sorry but sometimes i let you draw a card". Probably you read "Hi, i'm a 4cc spell: don't play me, its stupid, 4cc means that i'm at least viable onto standard."
I'm sure you haven' t played it enough, moreover because you do a paragon with Cunning Wish; the only thing that those card had in common is the blue mana in theyr casting cost, but they are pretty different starting from the impact that they have first of all in your building strategy. Cryptic is an hard mid-late game counter, that could do a fog effect against goblin or a counter+boomerang vs ********. It doesn't kill your sideboard, meaning that you could play a good 4x package against your worst mu without cutting at least 5 or 6 slots to build up a decent Wish-target board. They start to affect the game on the same turn, 4th, because Cunning wish is ever a 2 turn card. You got to waste a turn to get an utility and another turn to use it, and it probably took you at least 5 mana. And, moreover, Wish sucks at his best in buildings without splash: you don't have acces to a decent creature removal, you always pick up some counter-effect or probably a bounce effect such as Echoing Truth or Wipe Away or Rushing River. Each of those spells did what you probably will be able to did simply playing CC, but cutting your 15 card sideboard poll to a 10 card slot pool.
Another point of consideration is that CW is viable only in Nearly Blue version, but if i want run some deck that did his best with EE and Wish probably i'm gonna play some Landstill variant to avoid mana screw and have access to Crucible, Academy and some maindeck solution other than EE.
And I am sure that YOU have not played with Cryptic Command if you really think it's a good card for this deck. Also, if you had been paying attention to what I wrote, I was comparing Cryptic Command to Cunning Wish only in the Nearly MUC builds, not the normal ones. I don't play CC in normal MUC because it really doesn't do anything. It might counter a spell and draw a card, but we don't play Dismiss because it's simply not fast enough. It might bounce a creature and cantrip, or perhaps fog a Goblin Horde (which if you ever get to that point you're losing anyway, that much I assure you), but even with that versatility it's still a 4cc utility spell.
I HAVE tested CC extensively, probably moreso than anyone else who has ever posted in this thread or maybe even on this site, and I can assure you that it's both too slow and too weak to fit into MUC. The point about it avoiding Counterbalance is useless because if you're losing to Counterbalance then you're playing this deck awfully anyway. All of your important cards cost 3 or more, and just how likely is it that a CB player will be able to constantly have a 3 cc card on top? Slim to none. In fact, many builds of Thresh don't run a single 3 cc card at all. On top of that, you should be crushing Threshold anyway.
What is Cryptic Command good against? What matchups could it possibly help? It sucks against Goblins because it comes online far too late and is only a stop-gap even when it is effective, which isn't nearly enough to win you that match. It sucks against Threshold because while it does dodge Counterbalance it's vulnerable to damn near everything else and you will never get decent value for it because there's maybe one card in the average Thresh build that costs 4 or more mana, and if you let them actually maintain 4 mana you're probably in trouble anyway.
The only thing I ever thought Cryptic Command was good against in testing was other control, and even then it was suspect. It's very hard to keep 4 mana open when you're constantly dropping things like Powder Keg and Vedalken Shackles, or Back to Basics, and by the time you have 4 extra mana to spare you've more or less either won the game or lost the game. Cryptic Command probably won't help you once you get there. It's also a prime target for both Daze and Force Spike, which is as frustrating as it is game-losing.
Cryptic command is not just a 4 mana counter with 3 additional aiblities. It's also a nice buffer versus extirpates.
Where does extirpate usually land vs MUC? right counterspells. So what happens if lucky opponent draws 2 pates in a match and vaproize both fow and counterspell? You really think force spike will safe the day? or anything else?
As for the speed of Cryptic. You mention goblins. I can't see how MUC loses to goblins. I won many goblin matches and tournaments. Sometimes i lose hard though.. why? Because turn 1 lacky > turn 2 pildriver+warchief is gg.
But which deck doesn't lose from this combination if it goes unanswerd?
And talking about goblin, the card that let you win that mu is ALWAYS Propaganda. You can do a Spike to handle some first turn- second turn play, but going to the midgame you always get busted by each single goblin drop: vial, lakey, piledriver, warchief, matron and moreover ringleader are each a must counter for you. Now, assuming that you will probably handle one or 2 threat of your opponent who's playing goblin, you can't win going on mid-late game without dropping a Propaganda. In that way, a 4cc spell that stops a letal attack and let me draw a card, increasing the probability to find a Prop., is simply a powerhouse.
That's the last building i have tested, where i try to run Vendillion Clique, and they simply impressed me: they are a powerhouse against ******** cause they chumpblock at istant speed Mongoose, and sometimes stoles a Dark Confidant on the other side of the board. Against Landstill they are pretty awsome cause they simply let you know what your opponent had in hand, and moreover after your opponent did a Brainstorm, because many player doesn't think you play something similar and put the best of the 3 card they saw in hand, a fetch on top and a card they don' t want in hand as the second from the top. And at least, they could target you to let you draw a card and put some useles land on bottom library. I've started to test some maindeck chalice of the void because they did pretty well against storm.based, ********, and moreover burn. To play CotV i cut off Spell Snare, that i didn' t find interesting as i tought. It probably did his best in other decks, but against ******** for example i've noticed that i always let they get a goyf on board to simply stole it by Shackles, and Snare was a mere counter to hit only CB.
Here's what i'm playing by now:
// Lands
23 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [US] Morphling
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
Problem is, if you haven't dropped any propaganda, there is no mid-late game against goblins in the first place anyway.
Plus, this reasoning is incroyably flawed. Ok, you're tapping all its creatures, effectively avoiding an attack. But you've also waited a turn's worth of mana to do it. So basically, the net result is that you've just had a cycling effect. Just play Brainstorm, Ponder, or whatever else instead. Seriously, the described play is AWFUL in any way you can look at it.
the point of my observation was that CC isn't always useless against goblin, i know that propaganda got to be dropped as fast as we can, but sometimes if you dropped a 1st turn AV, 5th turn you'll find drawing 4 cards, 5 if you are forced to play a CC to have the fog effect. The probability of find what you need is, obv, unfair, but i want to point that CC isn't ever useless against goblin.
So effectively, your argument for playing cc is that fow and cs are going to get pated and you need something else? Play Spell Snare or Rune Snag, or hell, even Mana Leak, all of which are better choices than CC.
That one counterspell takes an entire turns worth of mana in mid-late game. Mana that would be better spent on board control like keg, ee, shackles, prop, and soon to be curse of chains.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
If you can't see how Goblins beats MUC then I don't know what to tell you. In a build taylored specifically to beat Goblins MUC BARELY holds a 50-50 percentage against them. Seriously people, Goblins beats MUC. Get that into your heads. I don't care if I have to pilot Goblins myself against your MUC builds to prove the point to you, but the sooner you accept MUC doesn't have a good matchup against Goblins without significant concessions to them the better off you'll be.
Regarding Extirpate, if you build your entire deck around a supposed "vulnerability" (that doesn't even matter) to a single sideboard card then you'll never win a game, anywhere, as you'll be playing around Declaration of Naught, Obliterate, and Sirocco. Considering the only way to play around the three aformentioned cards is to not play MUC, I'm surprised you're still playing this deck.
Guys, I wanted to build a blue control deck whose goal is not to control your opponent, but just wants to delay your opponent long enough for you to combo out.
It's not a control deck but it runs a lot of cards this deck runs or ran.
Here is a list..
UW Control
//Combo
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmutate Artifact
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
//Control
4 Force of Will
4 Powder Keg/Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics/Propaganda
2 Veldalken Shackles
//Draw
4 Brainstorm/Ancestral Visions
4 Spell Snare/Impulse/Counterspell
//Mana
24 Land
It runs all the very best cards that make MUC so good. Yet, it doesn't need to lock down the game like MUC does, just slow it down long enough that you can combo off.
Sorry if you think this is offtopic, but the deck does play a lot of similar cards, though it is in no way MUC.
Just wondering if you have any ideas on improving it.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 04-24-2008 at 10:17 PM.
Well there you have it.
Yeah, no offense intended clark, but this really isn't the thread to talk about muc combo hybrid decks. Imo, the 'almost-muc' (or whatever we're calling the multicolor splash decks in this thread) discussion is off topic as well...but w/e.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
No offense taken. I realize it's off topic so feel free to ignore it.
I guess I was just looking for feedback on what control elements are the strongest/most neccesary parts of MUC, and what cards are expendible and can be cut from the deck.
Sideboard troubles...
I think (in European meta) 8 anti-red cards are needed for Burn, Goblins and the new Vexing Slusher.
I use 4 BEB and 4 Chill, should I use 4 BEB and 4 Hydroblast to destroy the Slusher and his can't be countered creatures?
Or is the Slusher not that kinda threat to this deck?
That leaves us with 7 open slots, shouldn't we devote these slots to replace the creature-hate in the mainboard (4 Propaganda and 3 Vedalken Shackles) against non-creature decks?
What should we use? Perhaps 3 Arcane Laboratory / 3 Energy Flux + 4 ???
I tested Repeal and I feel Stifle is the better all-rounder...
Hoping to hear your thoughts,
Richard
Edit: I play Kadais list with
-1 island, +1 shackles
-2 foil, +2 spell snare
Edit: One more thing, will Augury Adept see any play in muc?
Last edited by Richard; 05-04-2008 at 04:52 PM.
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