[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Skeggi]

Runed Halo seems like a great answer to single card strategy like goyf and dreadnought.

You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

[Pringlesman]

You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

I agree with you on the wanting on 5+ geddon effects, I just can't justify spending 50-60+ on a geddon varient when I still have duals, mox diamonds (I'm still borrowing them), and other random good cards in the format to buy.

[Lammina]

Hi all!

Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

Thx,

Lammina

[Curby]

With Dredge's shaky mana supply, any Ghostly Prison-style effect should be golden. Combined with this is their heavy use of nonbasics, which recurring wastelands can destroy handily. You may be able to turn a Factory into a Worker, then sac it to Smokestack or kill it with Wasteland, thus removing Bridges.

[Nihil Credo]

Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

Almost everything. Let's take a look:

Crucible, Angel: Not good per se, but they're respectively the glue that holds the deck together and the stabilizer in the face of an initial rush. Angel could be sided out, but as they don't run removal and it can comfortably race 7-8 power of creatures (depending on your life total), and you have better stuff to take out anyway (Stax and/or Ring), it usually isn't.

Armageddons: Generally great, turning soft locks into hard locks. Don't get greedy - use them as Stone Rains if needed. Exploit their 12-land count.

Wasteland: Wuv. 50%-100% of Armageddon's returns with a far smaller cost.

Chalice: At 1 it shuts down Imp, Therapy (though they still get to sac), G2 Chain of Vapor, and Careful Study/Gamble/Brainstorm if run. Breakthrough also needs to be for 1 or more. So it can be decent, if far from spectacular. However, G2 it's critical because at 2 it turns off Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation, pretty much hard-locking them.

Trinisphere: Ouch. Enjoy your 12 lands... and pray I don't draw a Wasteland or Armageddon. Of course, it gets far weaker past turn 1, though still good.

Ghostly Prison: Same as Trinisphere, except that attacking is more vital for Ichorid than casting spells. Usually it's either Ray of Revelation or GG, especially if you draw multiples.

Magus: This is your insurance for the long game: unless they pull off something like 3x Ichorid + Moebas into DR into FKZ/Akroma (and you don't have a Trini), it shuts off Zombie Tokens and DR plans. Of course, it also blocks Ichorid all day long.

Oblivion Rings: I don't run them MD, but if you do, they're probably your worst card for the MU. They do work as insurance against reanimated fatties, though.

Smokestack: Awesome if they don't have Zombie tokens; terrible if they do. I usually side these out for Powder Kegs or Engineered Explosives.

[Lammina]

Hi all!

Thanks for the answers! I got it!


I have a test-list of ArmaStax, lets see:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains
3x Mishra Factory
1x Nomad Stadium

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
2x Winborn Muse
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Exalted Angel

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon

SB
3x Hanna's Custody
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

What you think? Any ideas?
I thinking some changes, like:

-1 Nomad Stadium
+1 Horizon Canopy

-2 Muse
-1 Silent arbiter
+3 Oblivion ring

Im right in my idea, or not?


Thx for now,

Lammina

[Sanguine Voyeur]

How useful are the Hanna's Custodies? Karmic Justice won't protect you permanents as well, but it does provide card advantage that compliments the mana denial aspect while being useful against sweepers.

[Nihil Credo]

3x Flagstones of Trokair

I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.

1x Nomad Stadium
2x Windborn Muse

They're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.

1x Silent Arbiter

Ugh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources

3x Crucible

FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.

SB

There are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

[Skeggi]

4x City of Traitors => this could be 3
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland => this could be 3
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains => I run 6 at least, 7 pref.
3x Mishra Factory => this could be 4
1x Nomad Stadium => lol?

3x Magus of the Tabernacle => I like 4 Tab effects, so I run a Tabernacle too
2x Winborn Muse => these die, I wouldn't do it.
1x Silent Arbiter => lol?
1x Exalted Angel => this could be 2 or 3.

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack => this could be 3.
3x Crucible => as Nihil pointed out: you need 4.
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon => this could be 5 or 6 with Ravages of War.

SB
3x Hanna's Custody => I don't run this...but perhaps I should...are they any good?
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes => I think I'd prefer something like Rule of Law in this slot. I'm not too worried about creatures.
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

For comparisson, my SB currently is (note that I run 3 Oblivion Rings MB):

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence (going to cut down on this one probably)
4 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid

As soon as I get my hands on it I'll swap a Suppression Field for a Defense Grid, the 2 Crypts for Wheel and an Aura of Silence for a Rule of Law...probably...but I need to test :-)

[Lammina]

I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.

They're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.

Ugh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources

FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.

There are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

@ Nihil: Im so glade with the attention! In first place, sorry for any english error, ok?


The meta game here is infested of aggro decks (gobbos, elfes, Threshold, MAGES (!!!), faries, knights...), but in the last champ, one guy with Dredge´s deck was the winner (and my Suicide black with tarmo, in second).

For the next champ, I need prepare my ArmaStax for this meta (heavy aggro, but with some EXTREMELY dangerous-fast decks, like Dredge and Psycatog...)

T4 decks causing headache for legacy ones.... sounds like a joke huh? hehe!

Waiting ideas!

Bye,

Lammina

[The Wes]

So you are trying to tune your w stax for a meta with a whole lot of fast agro? Well, first off I'm try to lower the number of smokestacks you are running, or even remove them all together. Most likely elves, gobs, mages, faries, and knights are going to be able to get out enough permanents to keep up with you stax counters. I've been working on a w stax list recently tuned for a heavy agro meta.

6 x plains
4 x ancient tomb
4 x city of traitors
4 x wastelands
3 x flagstones
2 x tabernacles
1 x horizon canopy
1 x kor haven

3 x ghostly prison
4 x trinisphere
4 x chalice of the void
4 x armageddon
4 x crucible of the worlds
4 x mox diamond
3 x oblivion ring

3 x magus of the tabernacle
3 x windborn muse
3 x exalted angel

sb
1 x ghostly prison
1 x windborn muse
4 x suppression field
4 x duskrider
4 x avien mindcensor
1 x oblivion ring

So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.

Also, horizon canopy is great as a 1 of, run it if you can. I think I'm still one of the few people on the stax thread that loves muse. I would never run her as my only prison effect, but in combination she's a beast. Her ablity to fly in for damage and still prison them has won me many a game.

[Noman Peopled]

I've been playing Stax myself, without the Ravages unfortunately, but haven't kept up with the thread. In any case, I was wondering if anybody else tested Mistveil Plains out of SHA? (Search turned up nothing.)
It was surprising how seldom the cipt clause mattered in preliminary testing - most often I fetched my singleton with Flagstones, ditched it with Diamond, or just plain didn't need the mana right then.
Sometimes it happens that, albeit having a Smokestack lock in place, you draw nothing and are forced to give it up (aggro especially, or decks that can hoard spells for one explosive turn; and whenever you draw too many of your plains). Using Mistveil Plains, provided you have two white permanents and a Crucible in play, you can keep Smokestack with two counters on it forever. At worst, it allows you do dig for another Smokestack/Geddon (if you don't have on-board pressure and can't cast it while activating Mistveil Plains).
I've also recurred Armageddon with it on occasion, though that still necessitates being able (and willing) to blow up Flagstones.

So the upside is quite situational, but busted - possibly to the point of win-more - if it pans out; while the drawback is far from irrelevant but manageable. Or maybe I'm just being lucky to draw Mistveil Plains mostly when it's not crap, or unlucky with my post-lock draws.
Any thoughts?

[Nihil Credo]

I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games, and especially more often than it does having a frickin' nonbasic CIPT land in your deck.

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

[emidln]

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

This is mostly true. Everything you draw will be a permanent, but you'll sometimes hit lands. This will trip you up since you already want to play the land from your graveyard.

[Nihil Credo]

You're correct, I forgot to mention them; although that happens a lot less once you're at the point of having run out of Plains.

[Noman Peopled]

I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games

It happens to me, anyway.
Note that I didn't imply "run out of Plains -> loss", I said "draw nothing relevant -> loss". This could be any number of things, including meddlesome opponents.
Also note that I didn't say it's nuts, or even good. I only enquired if anybody had tested it.

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw.

I'm well aware of that. See above. I could chalk my land, land, land, land, land scoop draws down to bad luck (add to that that I'm not guaranteed even three mana post-lock if my opponent has Wastes or I was force to Geddon regardless of Smokestack), but instead I guess I'll just test it some more. Or I could chalk it up to insufficient playskills and still test it :p

You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

That's all obviously true, although I'd like to reiterate that in my testing (admittedly limited to twenty games or so), what happened was mostly
- I ditched MPlains to Mox
- I had other lands in hand that I could play first (in this case MPlains is a dead card until later)
- I had other lands in my graveyard to recur (see above, except it usually gives more options)
- I got it with Flagstones.

On the flip side, it's hard to say if it had any positive effect at all, since the games would have gone differently without it. I know I often wished I could keep up a Smokestack lock for longer than I was able in the past, or I didn't have a real lock because my opponent had been able to deal with some of my permanents or because I drew nothing relevant. It would be a lie, of course, to say that the cipt clause didn't stink badly in the cases you outlined. (Wasteland hurts even more in those cases.)
What I intend to test MPlains for is
- recurring Armageddon and Angels (with Smokestack/Armageddon and Flagstones as a shuffle effect - slow and unreliable as it may be, it still gives me an extra option)
- keeping up Stack at two forever in the face of decks that can potentially visit mass destruction upon enchantments and artifacts given wiggle room (making it problematic to keep sacrificing newly drawn permanents)
- out-stacking opposing Crucibles even if I have drawn/fetched mutiple Plains already
- out-stacking Loam in a reasonable time frame (or keeping up with it long enough to draw an Armageddon in case of Exploration)
Granted, these are all corner cases that allow MPlains to prosper only under special circumstances, arguably best adressed via boarding and metagaming. As I said, I myself am far from convinced.

[Melwis]

Quick question: Isn't Flagstones what makes your Magus survive after you have resolved an Armageddon? Why is everyone "only" running 3?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Magus doesn't have to survive and Aramgeddon to be effective. If you 'geddon with a Magus out, even with out a Crucible, Mox, or Flagstones, you'll have wiped the opponent's board of lands and creatures. Combined with other lock pieces, this can be game swinging.

Three Flagstones may be the optimal number due the the tempo loss of when you hit two. Early game mana is essential, you need to put down enough lock pieces to not lose.

[Nihil Credo]

"Everyone" != "The last two lists that were posted"

According to DeckCheck.net, the average for recent monowhite Stax lists is 3.54 Flagstones.

[Cait_Sith]

Another way for Magus to survive is to simply run Darksteel Citadel It is what I have been doing since long before this thread popped up and it works great.

On Mistveil Plains:

What does it give that balances out the comes into play tapped? Even if nine times out of ten the drawback meant nothing, you need the "put on the bottom" clause to be relevant eight times out of 10 and, with your extremely few shuffle effects, I doubt it will matter greatly 8 times out of one hundred.

In short it takes little away, but gives even less back.

In shorter, not worth it.