I don't disagree that confidant is a fantastic card, however i just don't think he is right for threshold. I played Deadguy forever and confidant is well justified in that deck because it plays a critical amount of efficient disruption backed up with a clock. Threshold goes a bit longer than deadguy does because we do not have as fast as a clock, sometimes we can't even dig out a single creature through 2 or 3 cantrips.
I can see confidant being supported but it would have to incorporate the c/b top engine as well to mitigate confidants life loss. Looking over the list the other issue i have is the more we incorporate a 3rd a 4th color the more we cut back on blue cards. It makes it hard to support FoW when we dip below 16 blue cards.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Terminate??
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
sideboard options
Ancient Grudge
Pyroclasm
Extirpate
Leyline of the Void
Engineered Plague
I think terminate really is the solution we have been looking for. It at least makes me forget that we don't have swords which is really all i'm asking for. I am wary though of not having a solution for turn 1 lackey outside of Daze or FoW.
If you're going to run four colours, is having Terminate for removal and Pyroclasm in the SB really an improvement over having Swords for removal and Plague in the SB?
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I don't know, im just running this out there as theory. I think there are only a few things that a white splash would bring.
Swords to Plowshares
Mystic Enforcer
Hoofprints (not a fan at all)
Orim's Chant (thats a stretch)
A red splash gives better sideboard options. The 5-color builds wanted red just for the superior sideboard options
Ancient Grudge
Pyroclasm
Red elemental blast
pyroblast
Terminate + plague + pyroclasm?
Fear of aggro?
For SB options, White offers Armageddon, Gaddock Teeg/Meddling Mage, Serenity. Black+Red can slaughter aggro, but Black+White can be a nightmare for control.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Firstly, why would you run Terminate over Shriekmaw for removal.Originally Posted by Nihil
Second, you run white for Swords and nothing else. Except for that, red can do everthing as good, or better. Those who think white is better than red against control are smoking crack. Every since players began tuning Landstill white has become worse and worse against control. The chances of landing an Armageddon against control are so incredibly small. This is not to say that Ugr is particulary good against control (especially if the control deck is also playing Tarmogoyf). However, red has reach in the form of burn, and that normally ends the game.
Adding black to Ugw is a logical way to increase the decks potency, and it is just a small jump to get to 5c. The 5c manabase is more stable than the 4c manabase (yes, I am serious). REB/ Ancient Grudge/ Pyroclasm/ (and Blood Moon if only playing UGr) are damn good reasons to chose red, if only for the access to them in the SB.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Because sometimes you need to kill that Dreadnought or Tombstalker, which usually are very hard to deal with.
I won't say it's wrong, but I'm not happy with your exaggeration.
Against Landstill, the black and red tempo-variants (with the manadenial element) seem to be the best, but from all the control-oriented builds, UGW Thresh is better since you can nearly hardlock UWb Landstill with CBalance and Gaddock Teeg.
And even if he manages to handle that, you have Armageddon as backup if we suppose your opponent has blown out all of his counters to deal with Balance+Teeg.
It also depends which build you mean. Against Cunning landstill, NQGw seems appropriate to me, but against the 4color lists, yes, Red seems to be good, especially when you are running Moonthresh. But in most of the cases, UGW's Pithing Needles can do exaclty the same like the Moon and even more (like shutting off Decree of Justice, Engineered Explosives, Deed and so on). Pithing Needle won't shut down your opponent's mana compared to Blood Moon, but Blood Moon is more situational and needs a big setup and that's a thing we can't afford against control, the solutions need to be quick and efficient.
Against other controldecks where Armageddon won't be countered, White is also superior to Red. But I don't know whether Rifter, TrainWreck, TruffleShuffle or whatsoever is played anymore.
edit: Haven't seen PhanTom_lt's post, but he's also right, those critters are very hard to deal with. In most of the cases, you have to rely on Force of Will. Or something like 2-3 Goyfs on the board to race them (utopic...).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I have a lot of doubts, now there are a lot of landstill decks and this is a easy match up for thres moon but its difficult for UGR threshold tempo.
Thinking about metagame in general what do you think that is better ugr threshold tempo or thres moon ?
Depends on what kind of Landstill.
Against decks like UWbg Landstill, you want to play Tempo Thresh because you can rape their manabase and Stifle their Deeds. Moonthresh doesn't do much here because they'll never let moon stick or resolve, and CBalance doesn't do much to them.
Against UWb/UW Landstill, you probably want to play MoonThresh because Moon, while it doesn't devastate them, shuts down their only Wincons and Counterbalance is very strong.
SRSLY, WTF?!
Against 4color Landstill, you want to play Moonthresh, because blood moon annihilates their manabase. 4color Landstill with the 12 Duals, 6 fetches, 4 Mishra's and 2 Monasteries usually fold to Blood Moon.
They will of course do anything to prevent Blood Moon from hitting the table, but it will win if it does (except you play it when your opponent has got a Deed out. But that's the most stupid thing you could ever do...).
Against Cunning Landstill, which has actually got enough outs for Blood Moon, Moonthresh isn't really good. This one can only won by fast and aggressive play, but at the same time, you have to watch out for WoG, EE and Humility. So you have to play UGR Tempothresh since you have to deliver beats and generate speedadvantage via Wasteland, Stifle and reach with Burn.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
What I mean to say is, against Cunning Landstill, Counterbalance is very good. In my experience playing UBGW Landstill, I have more Counterspells online then the Thresh player does by the time they can drop Blood Moon, so they're just playing normal UGR Thresh, with a lot of cards that are bad against me (counterbalance).
Then again, you've probably tested this a lot more than I have.
Ah, ok, unter these circumstances, I could agree with you, except that Counterbalance still sucks against UWb Landstill if you don't have Gaddock Teeg (which you won't have when playing Red). Engineered Explosives is the efficient solution against Counterbalance.
But of course, the fact that it shuts down their removal and miscellaneous stuff like brainstorm is pretty good, but Engineered Explosives is the equivalent to Pernicious Deed here.
Of couse, you can generate a lot of speedadvantage and screw 4color Landstill with canadian Thresh, but Blood Moon is the auto-win when it hits the table.
And I somehow see why Redblasts are coming up, they are pretty cool and help you to force through a Blood Moon.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
My builds of UW Landstill are usually built on a lower CC as a way to deal with Thrash, so that's why I was saying that Moontresh rolls them. But, at the same time, I can see your points.
REB/Pyro is good I guess, but I've never had the space for them in my board, between Grip, Needle, Clasm, Moon, and Crypt in Moonthresh and Grip, Clasm, SDT and Counterbalance in Thrash.
This makes no sense at all. It seems almost 100% backwards.
Stifle and Wasteland can mess up either UWb or Uwbg... but naturally the one running more colors is going to be hurt more by Blood Moon. Obviously neither Landstill variant is going to let Blood Moon resolve if it's at all possible, but they pack the same counters so they are equally likely to have the answer to it; to say Uwbg will never let it resolve makes no sense, by that logic UWb never will either. When it is cast, either deck needs to have FoW or 2 mana open for Counterspell., considering both builds run 8 counters I fail to see why one is any more likely to counter it.
If Blood Moon resolves against Uwbg without them having a Deed on the board its essentially GG. They have no basics and have zero post resolution outs. If anything, it shuts down all of Uwbg's win conditions, seeing as they are manlands and spells that can not be cast with only Red mana.
Post resolution, UWb can preemptively have an Island and Plains (or draw into one of the two), with any nonbasic (now Mountain) that opens them up to EE@3, additionally they have Cunning Wish for BEB that only requires Basic Island if played over two turns. For what little it's worth, with a pre-fetched or drawn Basic Plains, Decree of Justice could be cycled for a bunch of tokens, so it is possible that UWb could cast a win condition and win through a late game Blood Moon without even dealing with it.
Counterbalance effects both decks equally as well... they both have Brainstorm, Swords, Counterspell, and Standstill, some lists have Stifle or Diabolic Edict in addition, but generally those 4 major ones (Brainstorm, Swords, Counterspell, and Standstill) will be present in 4 copies in either color variation, spells with CMC 3 or greater generally aren't effected much by Counterbalance anyway, so I fail to see how Counterbalance is stronger against one variant or the other, it seems fairly mediocre against both.
TPDMC
This may be really janky, but what do you all think of Vexing Shusher in the SB of this deck? I'm thinking of it in Moonthresh. It seems very powerful as it's a way to force through your bombs through Counterbalance (including Moon) and should give you an edge in the mirror. However, it is vulnerable and doesn't create the problem it does when played in combo, namely, that it forces the opponent to board out removal and lose, or keep in removal and clog up their MD.
Discuss.
Also sounds good in Swan Song Red Thresh. They can combo out midgame without any much interference... I mean, now it sounds like Bob the Belcher v2.0. If you guys dont know what Bob the Belcher is, it's a cross between Belcher and Landstill. It switches between roles playing combo or control. Against Control, it plays combo with control back-up and against aggro, it plays control with combo back-up. So for Swan Song Thresh, you should get the idea.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
What?
Anyways, I actually took moonThresh, threw out the Dragons and other stuff I found not necessary and ended up with this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Island (1)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
// Spells
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [ON] Chain of Plasma
4 [NE] Daze
1 [TSP] Conflagrate / 1 [CS] Lightning Storm
1 [IA] Portent
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
It should look similar to Nihil's list (I don't know it anymore, except that he plays Lightning Storm).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I really like that list, especially its mana base and I think 3 swans should be sufficient. The only thing which I do not agree with is the singleton portent instead of a third top, but that's nitpicking.
Why would you ever play conflagrate over lightning storm? Conflagrate is neutered by graveyard hate and costs 3 red mana instead of 2 red and one colorless. Isn't lightning storm almost always the better card in this combo?
I don't like playing only 18 lands while wanting to consistently hit as many lands as possible to play and abuse Swans (e.g. hitting the first 5 land drops to then have a backup Bolt (aka. Anc) in case they remove the Swans). I've played 20 lands in my last version and have recently moved down to 19, but my build is also more controlish than Adans so you could possibly also get away with playing 18.
The trick with Conflagerate is that you can discard it to your last copy of Chain of Plasma making it cost only 2 Red mana.
I agree that it is worse than Lightning Storm though as it is close to un-hardcastable whereas Lightning Storm still can be used as a crappy Bolt from time to time.
Adan mainly wants to play Conflagerate over L. Storm because he fears that you might fizzle due to not having enough lands. He has a point here, especially if you're playing against something with Life from the Loam, but as you only have to redirect the last copy of Chain of Plasma to your opponent's dome (17), swing with Swans (13) and then play L. Storm with 5 lands discarded (10, 0), you should always have enough lands as backup to neuter your opponents. As a last resort, you can still kill your opponent the next time you untap with all those additional burn spells you have drawn.
I think the discussion over Swans Thresh should be held in its own thread (here) though, especially since the lists differ from the NQG norm by quite a margin (e.g. 8 burn spells but with Counterbalance).
I'm also promoting cutting Nimble Mongoose because you reach Threshold very slowly (no Predict, you want to save your Burn spells most of the time) leaving only the standard Ug aggro control shell (cantrips/CounterTop/Goyfs etc) in common with NQG.
On the same account, I'm still sold on Daze not having a place in this deck: you want to develop your manabase and at least my list plays out much more controlish than your average NQG/r making the tempo setback quite harsh. Also, I've found that everyone automatically plays around Daze when they see that you're playing something with Cantrips and Blue Duals turning them into a virtual Time Walk even if you don't play them any more.
For reference, here's my list (still fluctuating heavily though):
Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (19) 4 Flooded Strand 4 Polluted Delta 4 Volcanic Island 3 Tropical Island 4 Island // Creatures (8) 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Swans of Bryn Argoll // Cantrips (11) 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm 3 Sensei's Divining Top // Permission (8) 4 Counterbalance 4 Force of Will // Tempo (5) 2 Repeal 3 Fire/Ice // Burn (9) 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Chain of Plasma 1 Lightning Storm /// Sideboard (15 cards) 3 Blood Moon 4 Tormod's Crypt 4 Pyroclasm 2 Trygon Predator 2 Krosan Grip
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
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