The List containing frogtossers will probaly be something like this:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Frogtossers
3 Warren Weirding
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
4 Aether Vials
22 land
I think they'll be at best as a 2 off...
So you'll have to cut 2 mogg fanatic/warren/gempalm, depending on which you prefere...
Why run them at all if you're just going to run 2? It's too random if you just run 2, and you're not going to Matron for it anyway. And running 3-4 of it, like mentioned before, thins the deck too much.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
If anything, that's the only way it makes sense. Banneret didn't excite me either, but if it has any use it's to pad the Warchief count up slightly so that you can consistently rely on having a cost reducer in play on turn 3.Originally Posted by kicks_422
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Maybe because they count as an extension for your Goblin Warchiefs? I dunno about your meta but in mine the Warchief gets answered by something a lot of times. I certainly wouldn't mind a few "lesser" versions.
Try and play Warchief as if it didn't have the 1 cost reduction and tell me how good you still think it is.
I don't mind having a bigger chance to get a "Warchief" at my starting hand. And it's always nice to have a backup if my opponent does something about the first one.
And hmm Piledriver is seriously the best Goblin? It and Fanatic are the first Goblins that I'm thinking about removing. Yes Goblin Piledriver can be VERY nice. But there are plenty of situations where it's kinda like a mediocre to bad card if you ask me.
Earwig isn't all that horrible as far as I remember a deck placed 1st in Asia with Earwigs instead of Piledrivers. Sure the meta game was heavily based on combo decks... but it can't be total crap? removing 3 hate/key cards from your opponents deck on the 2nd-3rd turn really that bad?
I agree, he's a good SB choice for the abysmal combo matchup, and I even ran 2 main before, but currently there's no room in the maindeck, and he's not the greatest MD.
Any ways guys... I was just experimenting with a Goblin deck with a lower land count. I'm not saying that it's better or anything. Don't start a yes or no war.
I only run 2-3 Piledrivers most of the time. By himself, he's horrible, but with a bunch of gobbos, he's a house.
I think Kiki sucks overall. I used to run him when I had Mono Red Goblins, but with the Rbg builds and through tons of testing, I've found him to be pretty janky. He's kinda cool when you have a Ringleader/Matron/SGC down and getting new ones every turn, but I'd imagine you'd be winning already by then.
3 SGC is where you wanna be. I'd trim Kiki and a Driver. But that's just me. I think Frogtosser is pretty bad. You'd really wanna have black mana by turn 2 unless you're relying on Lackey hitting. But I'd rather play just about anything else off of Lackey.
Kiki is usefull when you're already in a winning position. It's really not needed.
The thing about frogtosser is that people are just cutting 4 lands for him, and that means that with 19 lands you rely on hitting turn 1 lackey more than ever, and if that plan fails you just lose. Sounds like not the greatest to me. Then, if you're cutting good creatures you're putting a 1/1 in your deck and cutting cards that he accels into.
Kiki is also good at breaking stalemates on the board. I ran into this a lot with Countersliver where the board is covered with blockers and no Winged. A single Ringleader wouldnt do as much, and Crystalline makes SGC less of a factor, so a good move was to tutor up Kiki and go nuts with Matrons and Ringleaders until you could swing around their defenses. And thats pretty much the only situation Ive ran into were he is generally good. Usually he win-more or dead weight against almost every other matchup.
info.ninja
Wtf? Why not Weirdings them into oblivion? I guess if they remove/counter Wort, that sucks, but if she sticks, you've got them in a soft lock in which they need to counter the Weirding or play a sliver to keep up.
If they don't/can't remove Kiki, they can't remove Wort, I'd say. Plus Wort has fear :P Try blocking that with a blue, white, or green creature. If you're really having troubles, start using in Engineered Explosives like some are doing. EE for 2 = GG Slivers(Muscle, Sinew, Winged, Crystalline).
Because this was over a year ago, and there was not Weirding yet, nor Wort. I guess I should have been more specific.
Yeah, kiki was like 2004 tech, but now wort just seems better. She can recur siege gangs and shit all day and she also has fear which helps alot since tarmogoyf as a blocker can totally ruin you if you don't get a blazing start.
After testing a deck that used 1x wort and 1x kiki, I found myself getting Wort every time with the Matrons. Wort is simply amazing against everything.
For control, you basically win on your next upkeep when you start bringing things back - it's like drawing two cards a turn, and one of them is automatically a threat.
Against aggro, bringing back a weirding or gempalm every turn wins you the game pretty quickly.
I also agree that piledriver is one of the worst goblins in the deck. It is fundamentally a win-more card. Anyone who plays against aggro decks a lot know that a piledriver might as well be a ball lightning except that it doesn't have haste or trample. If you want to experiment with Tattermunge Witch or Bloodmark Mentor then by all means keep the piledrivers, but against thresh or random aggro decks, it's quite useless unless you already have a strong advantage.
Earwig Squad, on the other hand, does it's damage immediately and also comes with a strong body. Most threshold decks only run 8-10 creatures that can possibly kill you. Combo decks are even more vulnerable, potentially losing after only a single Squad. I think that for goblins to continue to stay alive in top-tier competition, it needs to embrace earwig. Frogtosser is definately worth testing because it helps pave the way for the earwig.
Also, on monored, I would strongly suggest splashing to get enchantment removal if nothing else. Engineered Explosives is also fun to experiment with.
I think that Earwig Squad is sounds pretty good in the combo matchup but doesn't come down til about turn 3, and swings turn 4. I suppose Lackey gets him in a turn earlier, but is that fast enough to beat out most combo decks? I'd say most combo decks can do stuff by turn 4.
In the Thresh matchup, getting a hit with this guy will almost always hit 3x Goyf, which is hot. I'd say that Squad is much more viable against Thresh.
I think against combo, sticking to Chalice or discard should suffice. Engineered Explosives is an option for 1/1 Goblins and 2/2 Zombies. I tried out Chalice today and it rocked the Sligh/Burn matches. Right now my board is looking like:
4 Leyline
4 Grip
4 CotV
1 Hooligan
1 Tinkerer
1 Gempalm
I'm thinking about focusing those 3 goblins or shifting them to Shusher, maybe Boartusk Liege (fuck you Pyroclasm/EP), and 1 open slot. Any suggestions for the board?
That's not true:think that Earwig Squad is sounds pretty good in the combo matchup but doesn't come down til about turn 3, and swings turn 4
turn 1: play Lackey
turn 2: attack, put Warchief/Frogtosser into play, prowl Earwig
And be honest Eerwig hits vs any deck... it's removing 3 of the best cards that they have against you. You also get to see their entire deck. How can that not be an advantage...
Last edited by Avatara; 05-10-2008 at 07:41 AM.
Hoi everyone :)
Updating myself on Vial Goblins and it seems lots as happend last time I checked. I am by no means an expert on the deck and i'm only playing casual with friends but I am simply amazed about what is being said. Piledrivers is bad?! Also, all the new black cards that is being added seems strong but i'm not sure...
Is the monored version seeing less play nowadays or is it still fully viable? That's what I currently have anyways and it looks like this:
Creatures(34):
------------
4 x Gempalm Incinerator (2/3)
4 x Goblin Ringleader (4)
4 x Goblin Warchief (3)
4 x Goblin Piledriver (2)
4 x Goblin Matron (3)
4 x Goblin Lackey (1)
4 x Mogg Fanatic (1)
3 x Siege-Gang Commander (5)
2 x Goblin King (3)
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter (3)
Artifacts(4):
-----------
4 x Aether Vial (1)
Lands(22):
-------
18 x Mountains
4 x Wasteland
Other cards that could be added into the deck:
Kiki-Jiki - Most of you seem to agree he is winmore and that you are better of with 3 Siege-Gangs.
Rishadan Port - Is this better than Wastelands in any way? Would 14 Mountains, 4 Wastelands and 4 of these be "to fragile"?
Tin Street Hooligan - Artifact removal is handy.
Vexing Shusher - He is interesting if you ask me.
There's probably more cards that could go in but atleast this is some ideas that I have tought about!
The problem with earwig squad is that he's terrible in the mirror where he just seems worse than piledriver, and against combo if 1 earwig beats them they deserved to lose anyway. You can't even lackey him out to get the ability either.
You have absolutely no disruption (well, except for incinerators...) do you just auto-lose against combo, or any hoser for that matter ?
Plus, Goblin King ? really ?
This makes the whole deck look like casual one :/ (although it clearly isn't)
Other than that, wasteland+port has been a long and widely approved combination.
That is how Goblins has pretty much always been. The fact that Goblins is less popular now is due first and foremost to the rise of Combo decks in Legacy and secondly from Thresh getting a big tempo boost with Tarmogoyf.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
For real how big is Piledriver in the mirror? Earwig is always 5/3 that means he can block almost any goblin out there. Sure he dies to destruction but so does Piledriver. Piledriver needs atleast 2 other attacking goblins before it reaches the size (power wise) from the Earwig. In the combat phase your opponent will most surely loose two of his Goblins to destroy your Earwig. If the prowl does resolve in the mirror... bang I remove 3 SGC/gempalm or any other key cards in the mirror.The problem with earwig squad is that he's terrible in the mirror where he just seems worse than piledriver.
What's the loss? Oh yes Piledriver has very useful ability... NOT.You can't even lackey him out to get the ability either.Yeah well a generic 5/3 on the second turn is better than a 1/2. It's not like the only reason to play Earwig is for the Prowl ability.
You can still take 1 tutor able Piledriver in your deck for the rare occasion that he will be the only card that will make you win.I also agree that piledriver is one of the worst goblins in the deck. It is fundamentally a win-more card. Anyone who plays against aggro decks a lot know that a piledriver might as well be a ball lightning except that it doesn't have haste or trample. If you want to experiment with Tattermunge Witch or Bloodmark Mentor then by all means keep the piledrivers, but against thresh or random aggro decks, it's quite useless unless you already have a strong advantage.
Sure Piledriver CAN be bigger than Earwig... but overall I think Earwig is a lot more solid and reliable and it has a really nice ability if you ask me. Yes I am aware of the 3rd turn kills with multiple piledrivers... but how many times do you pull that off? And how many times doesn't your opponent have an answer like FoW/Daze and a Goyf sitting on the other side of the table. Infact he only needs a 2/1 to neutralize and kill your Piledriver.
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