Yeah, I don't run it as I don't play creatures. But in one of the builds that play 4 Shreikmaw/Korlash + 2 Oona it's versatility could be handy.
By reanimating a Shriekmaw with it, you are essentially 3:1ing your opponent.
But it's not relevent I guess since most people moved onto low creature versions.
So I guess my next question is...
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Why the lack of Nev's Disks and Oblvion Stones (and which of the two do you prefer)?
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I currently run 2 Nev's Disks and 2 Oblivion Stones in my deck. They give you a much needed out against enchantments and artifacts. Otherwise, they are a slightly slower Damnation that work even better with Haunting Echoes. Basically, I see no reason not to play them.
Also, for the people who've been playing Liliana Vess for a while now, any problems with it? Or are you completely happy with it?
Is this just the thread for creature-less MBC or can I post here for advice on my creature based deck too? I dont want to get a wrist slap from the mods if there is already another thread!
YD
This thread is about the deck MBC and any variations of it are welcome :)Originally Posted by yankeedave
The reason is that in my deck I have 7 cards that both Disk and Oblivion Stone takes with them. Namely Crucible, The Abyss, Arena and Staff.
However. Not having any enchantment or artifact removal is surely a problem but I have to ask: Exactly what artifacts/enchantments is there that this deck wouldn't like to see? I'm not saying there isn't any but i'm just curious if there is ENOUGH to actually bother with it since if i'm adding Stone or Disk I would probably have to change my list alot :(
Just random crap.
Everything from Hoofprints of Stag to Winter Orb, Survival of the Fittest to even stuff like Blood Moon and Ankh of Mishra can be a pain in the ass.
And I'm expecting the new instant win grindstone combo to be extremely popular in standard.
It's good for a deck like this to have an out for randomness.
@Profane Command: Consume Spirit is stronger about 90% of the time. Profane Command is best in Aggro-Control decks where every mode is useful and where you do not nead the life gain from Consume Spirit
@Disk/Stone: I agree with Melwis that you rarely need them. 4 Mass Removal is usually enough and there aren't that many enchantments and artifacts that become really problematic. Needle and maybe Runed Halo can be pretty annoying but thats about it. There are of course matchups like Staxx or Enchantress there something like Oblivion Stone could be useful but especially the Staxx matchup remains incredibly bad.
I already gave some reasons why too many sweepers are bad. They make the deck slower and more vulnerable to disruption (especially Daze, Stifle, any form of discard and even randomness like Krosan Grip) since the opponent has more time to find the correct answer. There are also a lot of Creatures which need to be answered fast (Goyf, Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Confidant...) and too much mass removal i.e. not enough spot removal causes problems.
I was still writing, when you posted this so here are some comments:
Hoofprints is annoying but it produces creatures.
Winter Orb is hard to answer with Oblivion Stone (almost impossible) and it's only a problem if the opponent produces lots of pressure (which is not that likely with Orb in play).
Survival...lol...sorry...but the Survival player simply laughs at you if you try to answer it after it has been active 3-4 turns...activate Survival, search Witness, let's start again...
Blood Moon -> usually no problem at all...ok...you have to play without Coffers but you can handle that (btw one more reason to play more win options...Moon or Wasteland recursion can prevent the Consume Spirit kill)
Ankh...truely bad for MBC but Disk ore Stone will both be too slow to answer it (you'll take 4-8 damage if it comes down turn 2 anyway)
Would just like to point out that I am not concerned about Wasteland "at all" because I am running a 1-of Crucible (which Beseech tutors for easily)
This doesn't seem like the best deck to use up critical slots on maindeck Cruicbles. Even Landstill doesn't play Crucible and it plays fetchlands, wastelands, and man lands.This deck plays none of those.
You say that Disk is bad because of Daze. I respectfully disagree. The decks that play Daze, aggro control decks are not particularly fast. You don't need to absolutley sweep the board turn 4 to win agianst them. You can wait an extra turn and play around Daze esp if Duress showed it to you early on.
The main problem they and pretty much all decks pose is that they play either discard or countermagic.
I've repeatedly found that relying on 4 sweepers in total is an extremely bad idea. Because they can get discarded, countered, or simply not drawn. 6-8 sweeper is actually optimal in a deck like this.
Disk and O. Stone are also no where near as slow as you make them sound. The earliest they can play Smokestack is on turn two assuming both a mox and a two mana land is in their opening hand.
That's the same turn you can cast Disk thanks to Dark Ritual. The same turn that Ankh of Mishra is cast.
Disk and Oblvion Stone are fast enough to deal with Smokestack and other lock component.
Yes, you can lose two to four life to a Ankh before being able to blow it up with Disk. But losing two to four life to Ankh is far better than not having any answer to it and losing the entire game to Ankh.
As and you said, they can be good against Needle and maybe Runed Halo.
If you note, the deck actually plays six spot removal that is ideal against Tarmogoyf.
And as stated earlier, the decks that play problem creatures, it's not that critical that the creatures be destroyed asap. Waiting one more turn to take them out is not that big a deal.
P.S. Sorry I meant to say, I expect the Grindstone+scarecrow combo to be very popular in Casual.
I agree that Crucible is really bad in MBC since you can't abuse it.
Ok I confess that I forgot that you play Dark Ritual. But as I said before Ritual generates card disadvantage. So when you try to gain card advantage with mass removal you lose it at the same time by wasting a card in order to cast it.
Of course you are right that Disk / Stone is good vs. randomness but the question is if you need to answer it directly with removal. Fighting Ankh for example...of course you can blow it up with Disk / Stone but you could also use Staff, a small Consume Spirit or Tendrils to compensate (some of) the life loss.
Ok...something like Smokestack is a little different but the Ritual -> Disk plan won't work that often either because of Chalice and/or Trinisphere. And even if it works you still lose to 1 Armageddon. The point is that the Staxx Matchup is really bad with or without Disk / Stone.
I agree with you after thinking about it. It's quite funny actually because I have been playing exactly the deck you mentioned, namely Armageddon Stax. I think it has made me sort of Crucible mad and therefore I just added one hastily in MBC aswell (tho as a 1-of) without thinking about it. But it doesn't really make much sense so i'm removing it :)
On the subject of Disk/Stone I still won't add any but it would proably not be bad if I did. I just don't want to lose The Abyss right now (especially when I realised it's synergy with Thoughtseize) and i'm now also going to play with Staff. Along with them I also have Arena. It just seems that Disk/Stone could mean more trouble for me than for my opponent atm...
Anyone have anymore input?
Anybody decided to try out my build?
Do you have any input based on playing my build?
I really love having so many sweepers in the deck.
Big chunk of text....part response to a few test laps with your deck and part my own testing of Mono black control
I played this Phyrexian Arena / Dark Ritual - Mono Black Control – to see how it was doing.
I have been testing Beseech the Queen a bit for the last few weeks; I really missed it for getting what I needed to end the game. But anyway.
The Phyrexian Arena / Dark Ritual - Mono Black Control list worked, the card choices and numbers were all fine and if I was going to run Phyrexian Arena the other choices seemed appropriate. I played vs. UG/r Threshold, and Goblins, no sideboards. My basic complaint was it just didn't play reliably- there were to many times I had the wrong answers to a game state and even with Arena out I would be slowly dying and not able to close out a win. (while disk seems to be the right choice for this version –Stifle sucked ) and I didn't do that hot vs. threshold- it felt light on hand destruction for early reliable disruption to stop or get through what I needed. Goblins won every game. Basically even with a solid control state in the game and Arena drawing cards it often seems to eventually lose it unless it gets and echoes off.
I think as an exercise building a Black control build with Phyrexian Arena it has some good optimizations but that does mean the concept will be successful in the current meta-game gauntlet. Nothings really new in this build that changes any expected matchups. Thoughtsieze is pretty awesome but doesn’t play well with Arena – if you trim arena then the deck needs Dark Ritual less and starts to change a good bit. Arena might get you that crucial Consume Spirit but often it felt like I was at 10 life stabilized for the 2nd time and now my option is to play Arena and hope that I draw into a Spirit or Echoes in the next few turns or die. (My two bits from some short testing – though I have played similar stuff in the past.) Maybe some more tutoring but that looks like a tight fit.
//Mana
20 Swamp
3 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmtoh - (Was mostly useless)
4 Dark Ritual
//Discard
2 Thoughtseize/Chainer's Edict – I went with Chainer's as the life lost with arena seemed prohibitive.
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
//Removal
4 Innocent Blood
//Sweepers
4 Damnation
4 Nevinrayll's Disk
//Draw
4 Phyrexian Arena
//Wincons
2 Consume Spirit
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Liliana Vess
//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Phyrexian Negator
7 Others
Some top8's of Black Control to reference
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy
So far from my testing - I think Mono Black Control currently is succeeding by basically bending towards eliminating the opponents paths to victory. So to that end, it is heavy anti creature, and utilizes hand destruction to disrupt and setup a Haunting Echos or Cranial Extraction. Beseech the Queen has really been helpful in this by helping the deck dynamically respond to the situations, and take advantage or get to a position of advantage to win the game.
This is what I have been testing: I have an updated version at end post these tests – I'm not advocating as some perfect list but it seem to be doing well and might help others.
Queen Black Control
1 Visara the Dreadful
2 Consume Spirit
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Chainer's Edict
1 Infest
4 Damnation
1 Powder Keg
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Beseech the Queen
1 Staff of Dominitation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Jeweled Amulet
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wasteland
2 Cabal Coffers
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
15 Swamp
//Sideboard
1 Planar Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Distress
3 Cranial Extraction – Considering putting 1 main deck
Few of the card choices and comments
1 Visara the Dreadful – a few good options I have tried, my short list of tested vs my gauntlet: They have all worked well but Visara seems to be doing the best vs some of my more difficult matchups.
(+ 1 Helldozer / -1 Visara)
(+ 1 Ona Queen of the Fae / -1 Visara)
(+3 Korlash / - 1 Visara, -1 infest, -1 Consume Spirit)
"No Creature" has been really that great and the deck might be better off with perhaps 1 in side only as a change up.
1 Slaughter Pact – nice one of - can be used the turn it's beseeched, the draw back has not been a problem. – it would be just fine as Edict also
1 Infest – could easily be a 3rd Edict which is a fine call – but I v'e stuck with it for now mainly for some mass removal at the 3 slot for goblins the - deck and warrens
1 Powder Keg – really been solid early drop in many situations – would consider more of them.
1 Staff of Dominitation - it's good but…meh it seems all I mostly do is gain some life. Im beginning to wonder if its nessesary – but I've kept it in for some if its utility and if left un checked it can win.
12 – discard main? Yeah I won't change this atm they work great, and the board 6 more especially the Cranial Extractions keep me in good stance vs. decks that otherwise would be very difficult to beat.
1 Crucible of the Worlds – great one of I tutor for often, solid card drawing with Fetchlands, helps vs LD, and recurring wasteland. Been really great – I find I'm tutoring for it more than expected.
4 Jeweled Amulet: easily the oddest choice – Take for what it is "one player saying" they have been simply stellar in performance for me - test em yourself I don’t really feel like giving a vigorous defense of them when I know 90% of readers will dismiss them and the list outright upon seeing them – they work great in Mono Black Control and how the deck plays vs. accelerating and avoiding many disruptive aspects of opponents decks. If you take them out they are a 1-1 trade with land.
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire - Fetch lands compliment use with Crucible – three has be reliable in conjunction with tutoring, without being a big liability.
SB: 3 Perish – woot solid in my meta- vs thresh its been awesome for me.
SB: 3 Distress – really finding them important for control and combo matchups complimenting the early disruption– I have run these maindeck over Hymns and they were often better. ( tried Cabal therapys – they were sub-par in this deck)
SB: 3 Cranial Extraction- so far this has been the best way to overcome problem cards in a proactive manner, it really seems to be a key aspect the more I play as a proactive way of removing an aspect of my opponents game.
You could fine room for Extirpate – they haven't been game breaking for me though.
SIDEBOARD matrixes I used for testing over the last 3 weeks:
G/R Belcher
IN: 3 Engineered Plague 3 Distress 3 Cranial Extraction, 1 Nevinyarrl's Disk, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 1 Slaughter Pact 2 Chainer's Edict 4 Damnation,1 Crucible of the Worlds, 1 Boseijue, Who Shelters All, 1 Consuming Spirit
Comment: (Good matchup ) I figured it would be way hard, but didn't turn out that way. Died to a few first turn kills but otherwise, goblin warrens was mostly weak if not big on turn 1, and hand disruption usually broke up early comboing, so it became top deck mode for them waiting on a belcher. I usually tried to keep big mana generation out of there hand and or set a disk/stone/keg to force them to make 7 mana or lose the belcher. Hopfully I can discard a Blecher and tutor a Hunting Echoes. Also G/R belcher seem to hose itself a lot to with mulligans. Sideboarded Cranial Extraction was solid solution.
Dragon Stompy
IN: 3 Distress, 1 Nevinyrral's Disk,1 Cranial Extraction
OUT: 4 Duress
Commnet: (Good matchup) they don’t do much to you other than drop big creatures which you kill.
Mono White Stax
IN: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk, 3 Distress 3 Cranial Extraction
OUT: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 1 Infest,1 Consume Spirit, 3 Hymn to Tourach
Comment: (good) not much other than Armageddon and Smoke Stack to worry about. Cranial Extractions post SB made it quite difficult for them
Thresh U/G/r
IN: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk, 3 Distress 3 Cranial Extraction
OUT: 1 Infest,1 Consume Spirit, 1 Beseech the Queen, 3 Damnation
Comment: (Good matchup) 8-10 creatures that’s it. Just kill, strip and Echoes
Vorash Control
IN: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk, 2 Distress 3 Cranial Extraction
OUT: 1 Infest,1 Consume Spirit, 1 Beseech the Queen, 2 Damnation
Comment: (so far ..only 2 games) I had and early Crucible (top decked) with fetch land each turn and I tutored for wasteland. 2nd game was sideboarded – I win basically with a semi early Cranial Extraction backed with some previous discard on Wasteland and then Boseiju with Consuming Spirit/Haunting Echoes eventually hitting. However my general feel is bleh… not likely good – a lot depend on if they have wasteland or not because if I can untap Boseiju… Mono Black seems weak vs Factory/standstill also.
Goblins
IN: 3 Distress, 3 Engineered Plague, 1 Nevinyrral's Disk
OUT: 4 Duress, 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 2 Hymn to Tourach
Comment (ok matchup) MB usually took control, but goblins is quite good at recovering from mass removal, winning usually involved beseeching and Haunting Echoes. But mostly losing first game and letting E. Plagues help out post board. Even if removed gave plenty of time to win.
G/R Aggro Loam
IN: 3 Distress, 1 Nevinyrral's Disk,3 Cranial Extraction, 2 Perish
OUT: 4 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Consume Spirit, 1 Infest, 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 2 Duress
Comment: (weak matchup)Kicked my trash all over the place even though MB had control mid game in most games, each creature is a serious threat which MB can fairly easily respond too but it takes tempo and resources away while Aggro Loam utilized Siesmic Assult, Devastating dreams or Burning Wish to breakout and win. A resolved Cranial Extration on burning wish usually was a big help and/or a Haunting Echoes.
Other thoughts:
Ichorid: should smash the crud out of Mono Black. Sideboarded 4 Leyline of the Void is really the only chance and they can bounce it but it will likely buy time to set up some defense, but you'll likely always be a game down. Extripate might be ok but many slots would need to be main decked and its not that great otherwise in this deck so far.
Tendrils combos: not tested I'm guessing will likely be like Belcher – scary but favorable. though they do have some better tutoring to get out of top deck mode and (beseech for needle isnt as awsome)
Funny enough but opposing Hand disruption is a pain for MB as the opponent seems to be able to disrupt enough to take the tempo and sprint for the win. I ran a 2 vs Survival and 1 vs Rock both seemed close. Seem like it came down to if they had early hand destruction or not backed by a clock of beat down or survival. It was close either way Mono black could recover with a board clear – but rock has man lands and survival has recursion. So echoes was usually needed to win if it did.
Over all Beseech the Queen gave a nice boost to Mono-Black and made it more competitive in my opinion. Perhaps depending on matchups to make some top 8's
(if I run any more testing these are the updated changes I would use in Mono-Black)
"Current Build"
Queen Black Control 2
2 Consume Spirit
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
2 Powder Keg
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Beseech the Queen
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Jeweled Amulet – (I would consider +1 Swamp, +3 Wasteland )
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wasteland
2 Cabal Coffers
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
15 Swamp
//Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void –(not ideal but it seem like the only chance vs Icorid to slow them down, hate that they hog 4 sideboard slots)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Distress
2 Cranial Extraction
I much much prefer raw card drawing to singleton tutoring. Card drawing helps you both make all of your land drops and draw and play multiple bombs. Tutoring doesn't help make your land drops and only gets you one bomb.
I've been intrigued with Mind's Eye actually. Drawing cards with Staff usually meant tapping out until you're at the point where you've already won (have several swamps in play along with cabal coffers).
Phyrexian Arena on the other hand costs valuable life and it comes into play the turn before Disk which can be annoying at times.
Mind's Eye seems like a solid compromise solution between the two.
I also took your guy's advice on upping the creature kill and cutting some sweepers.
Here is my current list...
20 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
2 Nevrinrryl's Disk
4 Mind's Eye/Phyrexian Arena
2 Consume Spirit
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Liliana Vess
What do you guys think?
I am serious considering...
-2 Swamp/Dark Ritual
+2 Infest/Oblivion Ring/Duress
Do you recommend one of these changes?
Well, Clark Kant, I will run your list this weekend in a small local tournament. I don't really like the Eye, but I will test it then. I will write a detailed report.
Sweet. Thanks, let me know how it goes.
I really liked Phyrexian Arena too, possibly more than Mind's Eye. Perhaps a 2/2 split could work, to minimize the lifeloss maybe.
Also, I think 2 mana cards (either swamp or rituals) could probably be cut Duress, Infest, Disk, or O. Ring.
And I might consider Shriekmaw over Chainer's Edict, it can occasionally 2 for 1 your opponent too, and is a beater. Too bad it dies to most of your own deck. And gets rid of the one big advantage of the deck, that it makes all of your opponents cards into dead weight.
Are you guys serious? Mind's Eye??? I can accept Arena since it's not that expensive and can ensure land drops (still don't think that's needed but ok). But Mind's Eye is expensive, slow and can't ensure your land drops until turn 6. Staff of Domination >>> Mind's Eye because it's so much more flexible.
Some testing has indeed shown that Mind's Eye is not that good. You rather cast some utility for 5 mana than this, since it actually needs at least 6 mana for peak efficiency. And that is much, even for this deck. So I am considering filling in that slot by 2 Beseech the Queen and 2 Staff. I plan on using this list:
20 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
2 Nevrinrryl's Disk
2 Staff of Domination
3 Beseech the Queen
2 Consume Spirit
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Liliana Vess
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
1 Oona
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Helldozer
What does Dark Ritual really add? At 26 lands Mox Diamond would add a lot more mana over a longer period and be a roughly equally dead topdeck in a dead heat situation.
It may allow for explosive openings sometimes, but that is hardly worth it when you could instead run some more Chainer's edict, another Duress, and another Staff/Beseech/Consume/Echoes/Vess.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Yep, Mox Diamond works well with the current base. Honestly though, I'm very unhappy running essentially 30 mana sources, something I would have to continue to support Mox Diamond. I would much rather figure out a card that I should cut two copies of (be it Dark Ritual or Swamps).
This brings up my second question. Does Mox Diamond have to be played as a 4 of? It is a card that you absolutely do not ever want to see multiple copies of early on. It's down right atrocious as multiples in your opening hand.
Perhaps the best mana base for this deck looks like this...
20 Swamp
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mox Diamond
0 Dark Ritual
Smokey, why do you prefer Beseech (and Staff) to Phyrexian Arena?
Beseech tutors for just one card. What is there in the deck that is so unique and broken that wasting a whole turn just to tutor for it is worthwhile?
For the same casting cost as Beseech, Phyrexian Arena draws you a large number of cards usually. It draws you land to make sure you don't miss land drops. And it draws you into not one but multiple land drops.
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