Yes, Mox Diamond is a 4 of. You either see it in your opening hand, or on your first draw, or don't really want to see it at all.
Honestly, with 26 lands, I don't see much of a reason to run either Ritual or Diamond since you are much more likely to run into dead draws.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.Originally Posted by frolll
Nope. Or at least, not necessarily.
I hear this argument all the time, and it never gets any less wrong. Assuming a card has neither synergy nor dissynergy with other copies of itself (this is important!), when you play twice as many copies of it, you will double both the times when it's awesome and the times when it's awful.
To put it in another, more intuitive way: the quality of that single Taurean Mauler you peel off the top on turn X is not affected by whether there are 0 or 3 copies left in the rest of your library.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Regarding Phyrexian Arena / Beseech the Queen
Sure it would be nice to “prefer raw card drawing” to “singleton tutoring”. But that is not really a defense of Phyrexian Arena or a refutation of Beseech the queen, as it really is just a simple statement that appeals to the Card Advantage intuition of basic play a player would assume might be good. But in truth does not take into context the bigger picture of what going on, how the deck plays or the sacrifices made to include or exclude a card, and of course the life loss associated with Arena.
The notion that tutoring is supar to card drawing is dubious, and there are several restricted tutors to reflect there inheirent power. Is Beseech the Queen awsome? – its good and has definitely been confined to basically only work in Mono Black
Phyrexain Arena in a control based build – (i.e. not agro nor agro control) – finds it difficult to run Arena and Thoughtseize together. (thoughtsieze is a significant card – really really really significant)
Lets look at it a different way – card advantage – in a control deck that is mostly counter based control decks this is the defacto method because in most situations ANY counterspell type effect will stop or help with a control – not so with other colors they more often needs very specific answers to specific threats.
Moreover tutoring for a specific card CAN easily lead to a sum card advantage( ie Damnation).
One way MBC has overcome this in the past is to run cards like Skeletal Scrying that basically get the big card draw but only really hurt you after you already have big mana to fully use the spell you just drew. Old Necro – did similar stuff by drawing into plenty of lifegain and rituals (phyrexain arena is way slower in the card drawing aspect so you cant swifty recover)
Another problem I find with Arena is your “hoping” to get what you need by slowly dying with Arena and getting an extra card a turn.
Just do the numbers: based on your latest posted deck list
Probability: hypothetical situation - drawing Damnation on turn 5 because you will die if you don’t.
With Phyrexian Arena -and lets be idealistic your always get a first turn dark ritual/Phyrexian Arena 69%
The Same turn 5 would be 85% with Beseech the Queen
Probability: Drawing a Consuming Spirit because you are going to die to your own Phyrexian Arena
(and lets be idealistic again your always get a first turn dark ritual/Phyrexian Arena – AND we’ll Give you ten turns to get it - 70%
The Same 10 turns would be at 80% with Beseech the Queen and without Arena you won’t be on a self imposed clock.
Beseech the Queen does something quite important- it lets you run 2 Haunting Echoes -which are really important – but usually situational until your ready to use them - so early game consists of stopping or disrupting the opponent – tutor for the echoes – game over.
Beseech the Queen helps MBC overcome weak matchups by more consistently getting important cards relevant to that matchup.
Lets look into the past and see how MBC been in the past? A few from Deck check -
http://www.deckcheck.net//list.php?t...&format=Legacy
http://www.deckcheck.net//list.php?t...at=Inv_7th_Lrw
http://www.deckcheck.net//list.php?t...at=ChK_9th_Csp
http://www.deckcheck.net//list.php?t...mat=Rav_9th_FS
http://www.deckcheck.net//list.php?t...at=Mrd_8th_SoK
You will notice the lack of Phyrexian Arena in most any of the pure Control strategies (I.e. near creatureless). The exception being on Aggro-control strategies ( not MBC)that utilize beatdown to race there own self imposed clock or incorporate significant life gain (at least 4+spell) coupled with a slower environment – t2 / block that let them get away with some arena’s (and even then it looks like many chose other options in MBC)
I’m not fully against Phyrexian Arena (it might work) - its just that it has not been stellar in MBC lately – the deck list your putting up have been from card pools available for years – and not much has changed Phyrexain Arena is still not the hotness in MBC. (maybe in a quazi-aggro control strat, but not in the straight control version) The big changes have been Beseech the Queen, Extripate, Thoughtsieze, and Bitterblossom – I suggest starting there and seeing how they improve the archtype with or without Phyrexian Arena.
It seems like Dark Rit is necessary in a couple MUs: Against Combo, it lets you absolutely rape their hand on Turn 1. Against Goblins, it lets you answer Lackey if you don't have Innocent Blood in hand.
Still, Mox Diamond is probably better.
mugs, if you look at how most builds of MBC are, including mine, you would see that tutoring isn't as important there. This is not a combo deck. It is not a silver bullet deck either. It's a very redundant consistent control deck that plays numerous creature kills, numerous sweepers and numerous discard.
My build and most MBC builds are filled with redundancies. Tons of creature kill, several sweepers, several discard. You almost never absolutely need a damnation on turn four to stay alive. Between your first turn Innocent Blood and your second turn Chainer's Edict, odds are, any of your sweepers (Disk, Oblivion Stone, Damnation) is fast enough, or hell even a removal spell will suffice in dealing with your opponents one or two remaining dudes. In decks like that, consistent card drawers like Phyrexian Arena are definately better imo.
I also disagree that Thoughtseize is neccesarily superior to Duress or even vital in this deck. You have plenty of removal and sweepers already. One more way to take out creatures isn't worth the lifeloss over playing Duress imo, irrespective of whether or not the deck plays Phyrexian Arena.
I still maintain that Mox Diamond is better as a 2 of than as a 4 of.
Diamond is not a card that you absolutely must see in your opening hand. So what if you draw it three turns into the game, it's still a mana source if you have spare lands (which happens often with a Phyrexian Arena in play)
Cards that are absolutely atrocious when they are in multiples in your opening hand shouldn't be automatic 4 ofs.
It is a card that you absolutely do not ever want to see multiple copies of early on. It's down right horrible as multiples in your opening hand.
So perhaps the best mana base for this deck looks like this...
20 Swamp
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mox Diamond/Dark Ritual (Dark Ritual can and probalby should be a 4 of as it's not atrocious with multiples in your opening hand. It just means first turn Liliana Vess. :))
I have looked extensively at other MBC builds, I didn’t say it was a combo deck / nor a silver bullet deck. Tutors are often at there heart an aspect of making a deck consistent and redundant. When viable tutors were available they were used as 4 of in any MBC - Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation, Vampiric Tutor. So far Beseech the Queen has tested well, its 3cc is just in range, but maybe not broken enough to push MBC into tier 1. I have tested Phyrexain Arena plenty so far – specifically your build – it is not the panacea you are implying it to be, and I died plenty of times by not drawing the right answers to the current threats.
Moreover you sling around your statements like this:
Between your first turn Innocent Blood and your second turn Chainer's Edict, odds are, any of your sweepers (Disk, Oblivion Stone, Damnation) is fast enough.
Seriously what are the odds you get all this ramped out perfectly?
I’m not advocating Thoughtsieze over Duress – I think both need to be played to give MBC a chance - Thougthsieze is not just creature removal as you imply. Its versatility and cost are invaluable and its reflected in most any current top legacy deck that incorporates black.
The debate between the Dark Ritual/Mox Diamond vs other spells comes down to this. Is the card disadvantage worth the acceleration? And that question depends on your metagame. If the meta is infested with aggro and combo, then I suggest the acceleration, otherwise, in control, I would pick the quality cards. My list will be this
20 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
2 Nevrinyrral's Disk
4 Beseech the Queen
2 Staff of Domination
2 Consume Spirit
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Liliana Vess
Sideboard
1 Oona
1 Helldozer
1 Crucible
4 Leyline
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
That's exactly what I said before and the reason why I do not like too many sweepers. They are so often just expensive solutions for a single Goyf/Mongoose/Terravore/Tombstalker/etc.
I also still don't believe that acceleration is needed at all. Or at least I don't believe that there is good acceleration in mono black. Dark Ritual sucks because it's just one shot and Mox sucks because it's bad with Cabal Coffers (and with Disk / Stone if you run it). Moreover they both generate card disadvantage. Wayfarer's Bauble's effect would be ok but it's too slow for competitive Magic. So if they do not print something like a black STE I won't play any acceleration.
Your build looks good smokey squirrel.
Dark Ritual is definatley debatable. I like the fact that it lets you play Arena turn one, or a Liliana Vess/Oona on turn three/four, but it just take up valuable slots.
I cannot attend the tournament today unfortunately, but I did some additional testing.
- MBC controls decks with few threats
You crush low-threat decks. This includes ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and Loam-Variants. A resolved Haunting Echoes against those decks is a beating, since they will lose most, if not all of their threats.- Pikula/Eva Green is a very hard matchup
They kill your best resources very easily, namely your hand and your lands. Eva Green has the pressure to back this up. Pikula somewhat less, since it sometimes focuses on creature removal, but still can be a bad matchup.- Dedicated aggro like goblins also is very very hard
Your spot removal in the form of sacrificers is not so effective. Your sweepers are, but have to come online fast. Big problem here is Goblin Ringleader which allows Goblins a quick restart, while you have to find answers each turn instead of winning.- Liliana Vess is a great tool, but very slow
She allows for a buffer for creatures. She was very feared, and always became the target of discard or creature attack. Use this to your advantage. The tutor effect is very very very good. Problem is, she is very slow if you wish to setup your next plays. Also, she is very dissynergistic with Haunting Echoes, if you want to use her as a wincon.- Staff of Domination is insane
Yes, yes it is. Drawing two/three cards each turn and tapping the other player´s creatures is quite nice. If played while you have a lot of land, the opponent despairs quite often.- There need to be more threats
You can win with this deck as is. But not very fast. You will go to time with my version. And that is not a good thing. But the no-creature approach is very rewarding, since you can board in big things. If you get that far.- Surprise!
I inluded the Painter´s Servant/Grindstone combo in my sideboard. You can tutor for it quite easily and drop it, activate it easily on one turn, with Duress backup. It helped against aggro matches, but warrants more testing. I took out 4 Engineered Plagues for this.
For my list, see a few posts back. My conclusion is that this deck is a metagame deck. In the right, focused, metagame, you steamroll them. But, although the honest approach of this deck, I am not very enthousiastic about the way I built it now.
I'm pretty new to this archtype, but this list seemed strong to me. Let me hear what you think:
MBCg
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Korlash
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Liliana
4 Innocent Blood
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Smother
3 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Regrowth
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
I like the versatility of Deed, and I prefer Arena to Staff because early game it's a great tool, and late game you win anyways ;). Regrowth is also really strong, especially in conjunction with Deed, Hymn, or Damnation.
This list steamrolls Thresh but also seems like it should have a winnable Goblins MU.
It's an interesting idea to splash green for Deed and I think it actually makes Phyrexian Arena alot better. The problem with Arena is that you don't really have any control with it. You don't know how much life you're going to lose from it which makes it a bit risky. With Deed in the deck you actually get some control over Arena which has to be considered as something positive.
I'm not sure about your win conditions tho. Korlash is cool and all but I would probably ditch them and add 2 Consume Spirit and 2 Haunting Echoes (which I have found out isn't just a wincon but also great disruption around midgame).
I think Smother is a bit unnecassary. Targeted removal is nice, but this deck uses enough creature removal to make cards like Chainer's Edict or Diabolic Edict (instant speed is nice) just better.
4 Thoughtseize and 4 Arena is imo to much life loss. I run 4 Duress and 2 Thoughtseize instead and it's alright.
I'll end this by saying you've got me interested in trying out Deed (maybe Regrowth too). The only thing that hinders me is the fact that Deed might plow The Abyss for me (and I just happen to be in love with that card).
Ok, so i'm going to have to quote myself because I think I might have been a bit over my head here. And I have just found out a nice discovery about The Abyss which I want to share (yes we are engaged now).
First of all; I think what I said about Haunting Echoes isn't true at all actually. I played a game not long ago which lasted for like years and in the game Echoes was the card that made me win. I blame this to be the reason I wrote that it is a "great" wincon. and also a "great" disruption midgame. The real truth however is that the card rarely wins you games and if it does it is only in the laaaaaaaaaaate game where there are so many better wincons anyways. Also, it can disrupt your opponent badly sometimes (if you've managed to land like one copy of every threat in their GY which spells L.U.C.K). But most of the times it just helps them find what they need faster. I know it might seem strange that I suddenly turn against the card I vouched for earlier, but I am fairly sure what i'm saying now is more correct and I apologize if this confuses anyone!
Secondly; Korlash is not a bad wincon. at all. And his grandeur ability is simply a bonus. Infact, when I tought about him some more I suddenly wanted him (or atleast some creature) badly in my deck list as an alternative wincon. This however, was something I didn't think was possible thanks to me running my beloved The Abyss. BUT, this is not the case..
I have always tought that The Abyss makes each player have to SACRIFICE a creature each turn. But after reading the errata it clearly states the following: "At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated." It's a shame it ends with what it does because at first I tought even Korlash could survive it. But anyways, this means the effect is targeted. Which makes creatures with protection from black survive it without a sweat. I did a quick search and what did I find? Spirit of the Night! It does cost 9 mana which is alot even for this deck so i'm guessing it can only be included as a 1-of, possibly as a 2.of. Still, it's there and when I get it out my opponents starts losing life fast. I'm going to test this out wether you like it or not but feel free to comment on this tho :)
Finally; even tho I still believe Deed is very solid in the deck (i'm not taking back a single word I said about it in my previous post (yet)), but there is one big downside with it: Staff of Domination. And here I go again and take back what I have said before. It took me some time to realise how broken this card is in the deck but i've seen what it can do in lots of games now and I am now sure running 2 of it is the right thing to do. If you happen to have Beseech the Queen (or another tutor) in your list, Staff can probably be cut to 1. But you then run the risk of Staff simply being removed asap and then you have no chance of getting another one out in the field.
@Mental: To be clear I'll point out the things I still agree with myself on (lol) when I made comments about your list:
- Diabolic Edict can easily replace Smother.
- 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Arena is simply to much life loss and I suggest cutting 2 Thoughtsezie for 2 Duress.
If you run The Abyss and Staff of Domination, why not just use Phyrexian Colossus as a wincon? He dodges Abyss, is hard to block, and staff lets you untap him easily.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
I disagree about Thoughtseize and Arena being too much lifeloss. Let's say you thoughtseize twice in a game, and you have an Arena in play. Congratulations. You're at 6 life by now. Also, you're probably won the game. I'll take that trade any day, especially because now you just deed away Arena.Ok, so i'm going to have to quote myself because I think I might have been a bit over my head here. And I have just found out a nice discovery about The Abyss which I want to share (yes we are engaged now).
First of all; I think what I said about Haunting Echoes isn't true at all actually. I played a game not long ago which lasted for like years and in the game Echoes was the card that made me win. I blame this to be the reason I wrote that it is a "great" wincon. and also a "great" disruption midgame. The real truth however is that the card rarely wins you games and if it does it is only in the laaaaaaaaaaate game where there are so many better wincons anyways. Also, it can disrupt your opponent badly sometimes (if you've managed to land like one copy of every threat in their GY which spells L.U.C.K). But most of the times it just helps them find what they need faster. I know it might seem strange that I suddenly turn against the card I vouched for earlier, but I am fairly sure what i'm saying now is more correct and I apologize if this confuses anyone!
Secondly; Korlash is not a bad wincon. at all. And his grandeur ability is simply a bonus. Infact, when I tought about him some more I suddenly wanted him (or atleast some creature) badly in my deck list as an alternative wincon. This however, was something I didn't think was possible thanks to me running my beloved The Abyss. BUT, this is not the case..
I have always tought that The Abyss makes each player have to SACRIFICE a creature each turn. But after reading the errata it clearly states the following: "At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated." It's a shame it ends with what it does because at first I tought even Korlash could survive it. But anyways, this means the effect is targeted. Which makes creatures with protection from black survive it without a sweat. I did a quick search and what did I find? Spirit of the Night! It does cost 9 mana which is alot even for this deck so i'm guessing it can only be included as a 1-of, possibly as a 2.of. Still, it's there and when I get it out my opponents starts losing life fast. I'm going to test this out wether you like it or not but feel free to comment on this tho :)
Finally; even tho I still believe Deed is very solid in the deck (i'm not taking back a single word I said about it in my previous post (yet
@Mental: To be clear I'll point out the things I still agree with myself on (lol) when I made comments about your list:
- Diabolic Edict can easily replace Smother.
- 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Arena is simply to much life loss and I suggest cutting 2 Thoughtsezie for 2 Duress.
However, I'll do some testing with Arena as Staff of Domination. I just hate how useless that card is until about turn 8 or 9.
My wincons are fine, but I may cut an Echoes for a Helldozer, after your advice.
4 Diabolic Edict seems like a solid plan...kinda. However, I'm not worried about my thresh MU. I'm worried about my aggro MU - I know I can beat Thresh. So I'd rather play Smother as at least a 2 of, I think.
Rofl, that's a cool idea that I hadn't tought of. But I wonder, isn't Spirit of the Night just "better" even if it costs 2 more mana (you should have more than 9 mana available anyways). I think Spirit will end the game 1 turn faster than Colossus alot of times actually because with fetchlands, FoW and everything else many decks (most decks?) will have made my opponent lose +2 life in the late game therefore putting them at less than 19 life. If this is the case Spirit simply wins the game after 3 turns while Colossus will need 4. And the fact that Colossus require another card in your deck to be a wincon. and require a certain upkeep it is questionable if Spirit isn't just better?
One thing i'm a bit worried about with creatures as wincons. is the fact that during most of the game my deck dodges creature removal. Isn't there a big chance that my opponent has alot of answers for my creature once I get it out? I guess you Hymn, Duress or Thoughtseize first and then play your big beat but still, it's a bit risky if you ask me. Thanks to this I have been thinking about Epochrasite as a 2/3-of actually to force the opponent to cast their creature removal on him. StP's and counters stops him right away i'm aware of that but not every deck has those and even if they do Epochrasite can eat them and then you are free to play your big wincon creature later on. Not sure how solid this is tho and I have no idea what you could remove for him..
@Mental: I don't think Arena should replace Staff but probably Deed. You want Staff to stay in the field to make the most of it and this is simply not possible when you run Deed as mass removal. I'm afraid if you want to try Staff out you simply have to remove Deed in your list.
About the Smother vs. Edict battle I don't think it's the end of the world if you decide to go with Smother. But I believe there will be more times you wish Smother should have been Diabolic Edict than vice versa.
In my testing I seemed to think 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Arena was to much lifeless but with Deed I may see it working.
Duress vs. Thoughtseize is an interesting debate. It really depends on what matchups you anticipate. But I'm fine with Duress for now.
Against Aggro decks (this deck's worst matchup imo), Smother is far better than Edict. It's the difference between killing a Llanowar Elf and killing a Tarmogoyf. Smother takes out their best threat buying you time to find and cast your Damnation/Disk.
IMO, Oona, Queen of the Fae>>Helldozer in a deck playing Cabal Coffers. Oona lets you win in a single turn assuming you have a coffers in play.
Even if they play removal on Oona, you can in response create 6 1/1 flying tokens easily if you have a coffers in play. If they remove Helldozer, you're SOL. That's why I like Liliana Vess too, it's a Hypnotic Specter that dodges removal (both your Damnations/Disks and their removal), and against aggro has a fantastic win condition. At worst, it's two-three Vampiric Tutors.
I would play 2 Oona, 2 Liliana Vess, 0 Helldozer personally.
If that's the case your doing something totally wrong and something absolutely awesome at the same time. ;)
MBC's worst matchup is undeniably (storm) combo. And I don't see any cards in your list that makes it that much better. The problem against combo is that even if you get early disruption you have no real clock and your opponent will simply recover before you can kill him.
On the other hand non-Goblin Aggro is usually one of the best matchups you can get with MBC. And even Goblins is at least quite possible whereas something like Armageddon Staxx is next to autoloss. But as I already pointed out in the Train Wreck thread...don't play MBC/Train Wreck if you expect lots of combo/Staxx. MBC/Train Wreck is good at beating other cotrol decks, quite good at beating Grow/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and also quite good against aggro. However it has a really bad combo matchup and your chances against decks like Burn, Loam (with Devastating Dreams), etc. are rather slim, too.
All in all it's more of a meta deck. If you expect a lot of randomness and/or only a few combo decks MBC/Trainwreck is a quite reasonable choice.
Last edited by Agent J; 06-03-2008 at 04:28 AM.
Wow, I'm not up to date on the new cards. Oona IS really good. I should probably play 3 Korlash, 2 Oona, huh, or even the other way around sounds good. Vess is slow and doesn't stem bleeding, and nether does echoes. I like Oona/Korlash.
Aggro is definitely winnable if you play a good number of removal, and a decent amount of pinpoint removal (smother). You just need to stall until you can land a sweeper and then you're usually alright for a bit, especially if you have coffers going. Warren Weirdings is scary, however, since you have so few ways to win.
If you play Korlash I'd think you'd want to run the full set to abuse his Grandeur ability to the fullest. And Unholy grotto or Volrath's stronghold to tutor for.
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