[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[GreenOne]

Given that both Wraith and Top can be Needled, and both can be sided out; and that opponents like Needling Top but not Wraith, and you like siding out Wraith but not Top; is that evidence for Top being the stronger choice, or is there something wrong with this sort of logic?

Top is quite useful in comboing with Doomsday, so it's difficult to side it out.
Top is surely better postside when people is bringing hate and Doomsday works aroud it.
So your logic is flawed: Top is simply better postside.
And noone did ever side Needle against me (they should though).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Ok, so here's a small tournament report:

6 People show up.

I'm playing an old FT list:
8 Fetches
2 Island
1 Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract

4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

SB
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Trop
2 KGrip
2 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
1 Infernal Contract

Match 1, Game 1 vs. Bwg Homebrew.
I have the turn one win, but he's on the play. Great. He leads with Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize my Infernal Tutor -> Dark Confidant. I draw gas the next few turns and he Hymns me twice. At some point Goyf comes down and I'm forced to Tendrils him to 3. He Swords Confidant and kills me in a few turns.
Game 2 I take out a Wipe Away and bring in an Infernal Contract.
I go first, but I don't have the win. He leads with a Thoughtseize, taking my Infernal Tutor again, but I Mystical for another one EOT. I still can't win, and he Verdicts + Hymns me. I pull of Infernal Contract, but I don't draw the win and it's too late.
0-1

Match 2, Game 1 vs. Burn
He Bolt me. I win.
Game 2 I board in nothing.
He Bolts me. I draw. He bolts me twice. I win.

Match 3, Game 1 vs. Rgb Goblins with Maindeck Thorn of Amethyst
I keep a one land hand that can win on turn 2 if Brainstorm hits anything relevant. He wastes and it doesn't, so I lose to Lackey + Thorn and 2 Turns of dead draws.
Game 2 I take out Extirpate, Wipe Away, and 4 Street Wraiths for 4 Serenity and 2 Echoing Truth.
I fetch basics incase he plays Blood Moon. He drops Thorn and starts beating down, and I can't draw anything relevant -- not even an out.

Was this bad luck, or some fundamental problem with the way I'm playing the deck?

I don't think so, I think it's knowledge on the other side. The consistant T-Seizing on IT was a sign of this in my opinion. Game 2 they probably boarded in Extirpates, did you ever see any? Also, random discard is a bitch. Teching against is it not possible. You just have to get lucky or go off before they start stripping your hand. This matchup it's important to use your Brainstorms defensively.

Pce,

--DC

[disrupted]

Dont keep one landers? Sry but it has to be said in every format. Combo decks beat themselves every time I get greedy too.

[Mental]

Dont keep one landers? Sry but it has to be said in every format. Combo decks beat themselves every time I get greedy too.

I agree that that's why I lost the first game to Goblins. I should have mulled that hand, no matter how good it looked.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Don't keep 1-landers? I'm sorry, but I disagree. I keep a lot of 1-landers, especially if I have the kill in-hand. Discard is rarely (read: never) the reason I lose. Also, if I get 1-land hands, I can't remember a game where I didn't top/Brainstorm/Ponder/SW (When I ran it) into one before my next land drop. Maybe I'm just lucky, IDK. 1-land hands cut it for me in a deck that runs all of 16 lands (which is the most I EVER run; the 17 land build just doesn't have enough versatility for me to play it), 8 of which are fetches. I'll drop it and pass. What I grab is up to what I see them play.

After going down to 1x Petal, I think one-land hands are completely acceptable, especially if they are fetches. But then again, I'm an idiot...

Pce,

--DC

[NQN]

I started testing FT yesterday with a list frm the TES vs FT thread. I played some games against Bgw survival and won nearly every preboard game. But then he sideboarded and had a total of 4 Duress 4 Thoughtseize 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Extirpate and 3 Gaddock Teegs. Since I´m not able to play every step correctly until now it was no suprise that I lost several games now but I WAS suprised when I realized that he crushed me nearly every game now. Is it normal to looes to 3+Discard Spells and Gaddock or am I just too bad? What is the correct playstyle against this deck? And could you explain me how to kill with Brainfreeze? I always had less than 4 handcards so I wasn´t able to create enough stormcount to finish him off :(

[Omega]

sensei's divining top help,

mystical tutor to put a card on top of the deck,

brainstorm to save some spells

but yes, discard should be some difficult deck to beat

Robert

[NQN]

I know the obv moves...But if he gets Survival down i have to bounce/kill Gaddock EoT and win the next turn which is really hard if I have only 1 Ritual and 1 Mystical left for example. Also I had problems with MoonTresh because he got CB+Blood Moon on turn three nearly every game. I always fetched my basics but without UU/G it´s fuckin hard to win through those :S Maybe someone has some experience with these decks too?

[emidln]

I know the obv moves...But if he gets Survival down i have to bounce/kill Gaddock EoT and win the next turn which is really hard if I have only 1 Ritual and 1 Mystical left for example. Also I had problems with MoonTresh because he got CB+Blood Moon on turn three nearly every game. I always fetched my basics but without UU/G it´s fuckin hard to win through those :S Maybe someone has some experience with these decks too?

You really don't need to remove Gaddock Teeg, but it requires 7-8 mana (I don't remember exactly) and any extra mana can be useful because it translates directly into storm. The trick is casting Doomsday for this stack:

Draw4
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Brain Freeze

You'll want to top into Draw4, cast the draw, play both LED, and the tops. Tap a tap, breaking both LED for UUU in response, then begin to cycle tops for storm until you have only UU floating. When you are down to your last two mana, you cast Brain Freeze. This does require 2-3 acceleration and/or a lot of lands to work, but I've found that I can usually pull it off. It will lose to Extirpate after Doomsday, but you're not really in a position to contest that if your hand has been shredded. As far as avoiding having your hand shredded, Sensei's Divining Top, Mystical Tutor -> Draw4, and Orim's Chant on their upkeep are each ways to buy time. Given that you only need 1 card in hand, 2-3 cards on the board (that are exchangable for cards in hand) and 3 black mana to win the game though, I don't see much of a problem here. It's very possible to build a stack like Draw4, LED, LED, Tendrils, Ill-Gotten Gains that can generate lethal storm off the top with a Doomsday if you have some lands, rituals, or LEDs.

The version that I'm playing in the FT/TES thread has a known weakness to Moon Thresh and Dragon Stompy. I knew this going in when I cut from 4-5 basics down to 3. I haven't seen Moon Thresh being played often and have yet to encounter it around me so I stopped making concessions to it. It wouldn't be unreasable to go -1 Underground Sea, +1 Island, but I honestly don't think I should be the one telling you this. That really should be a call you can make on your own if your metagame has Moon Thresh in it.

Also, against Goblins it's really important to have basics. I think you might have figured this out from experience though.

[GreenOne]

And could you explain me how to kill with Brainfreeze? I always had less than 4 handcards so I wasn´t able to create enough stormcount to finish him off :(

If the cards you have in hand are Internal tutor or Doomsday + 3xLED or Cabal Ritual you could do it if no Extirpate is involved, I guess. You also need a Top on table.

I usually use Doomsday to combo with Brain Freeze. The stacks normally look something like this:

Draw4
Acceleration
Acceleration
SDT
Brain Freeze

The actual accel varies depending on I have available in hand/in play/on the table. The basic premise is that you're going to go about comboing normally into Infernal -> Doomsday floating all the mana you can. You then draw 1 mana for 1 storm, looping SDTs until you have 1U left where you play Freeze.

I had this hand on the Draw:
"Mystical, 2xDark ritual, Brainstorm, Fetch, Fetch, Plains"
The opponent leaded with a Goblin Lackey. I played a fetch and passed.
He attacked with the lackey cheating Warchief into play, followed by double piledriver.
I had to win that turn and asked myself, "how? hope to hit something good with the Brainstorm." Then I realized I had the win already in hand. My bad. I Mysticaled for Doomsday. The hand resulted in a turn 2 kill (whatever you draw for the turn) with doomsday with the classic pile:
LED
LED
IT
IGG
Tendrils

The deck is sick.

[NQN]

Trv. The problem with the brainfreeze kill against this deck is, that it has more disruption than any other deck and a fast clock with Tarmos. I was able to win little bit less than 1/2 postboard games today and was happy after winning games against 5 discard-spells+gaddock teeg. I just will practice more and then beat the shit out of him next time. Ty for the Brainfreeze thing btw :)

Greetz,
NQN

[Mental]

Don't keep 1-landers? I'm sorry, but I disagree. I keep a lot of 1-landers, especially if I have the kill in-hand. Discard is rarely (read: never) the reason I lose. Also, if I get 1-land hands, I can't remember a game where I didn't top/Brainstorm/Ponder/SW (When I ran it) into one before my next land drop. Maybe I'm just lucky, IDK. 1-land hands cut it for me in a deck that runs all of 16 lands (which is the most I EVER run; the 17 land build just doesn't have enough versatility for me to play it), 8 of which are fetches. I'll drop it and pass. What I grab is up to what I see them play.

After going down to 1x Petal, I think one-land hands are completely acceptable, especially if they are fetches. But then again, I'm an idiot...

Pce,

--DC

You do know that Goblins runs 4x Wasteland and 2-4x Port. Just FYI.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I haven't kept up on Goblins as nobody here plays them anymore. Last I knew they just had ports. Maybe the builds here just suxored.

BTW, I was testing more tonight against DS (it can be a difficult matchup if they go first with a Chalice @ 1 or a Moon effect and all you have is fetches/duals). I won 2 out of 5 matches...meh. However, the matches I did win were thanks to Slaughter Pact and Serenity. Serenity for Chalice and pact for Magus. I went off the IGG way and he was pissed. Figures. Red players...The other time I won was thanks to Pyroclasm (I've gone back to red for a bit to try out EtW again. You guys might not think it useful, but as someone said like a page back, it stalls well for me. Brain Freeze just isn't making me as happy). Due to this, I keep a Trop in my SB to board out red if I need to for certain MU's; also note that I can play a 5 color list by doing this. Not huge, but I can really tech the crap out of my list game 2...I think I'm probably just being indecisive.

Anyway, I might up the count of Serenity to 4x again. Anyone getting use out of Rushing River? Wondering if/what you guys use it for (I suppose I could have used it to bounce both Magii and Chalice).

I wonder how TES and FT compare vs. lists such as Stompy and Stax builds...I wanna see this...

Pce,

--DC

[Reagens]

I recently picked up the deck and I have a question.

Loam is very big where I live and I was wondering about the boarding strategy.

Post-board you can expect the following from loam:

Gaddock teeg
Chalice of the void
Thorn of the amethyst
Duress
Thoughtseize

Specifically my main test partner has the following post side:

3 Chalice of the void
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize (main deck but obviously stays)
2 Duress

Extra difficulty is access to burning wish for cabal therapy (very painful after toughtseize).


Any suggestion would be appreciated.

[Mental]

I recently picked up the deck and I have a question.

Loam is very big where I live and I was wondering about the boarding strategy.

Post-board you can expect the following from loam:

Gaddock teeg
Chalice of the void
Thorn of the amethyst
Duress
Thoughtseize

Specifically my main test partner has the following post side:

3 Chalice of the void
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize (main deck but obviously stays)
2 Duress

Extra difficulty is access to burning wish for cabal therapy (very painful after toughtseize).


Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Play TES/SI and win? Not to bash FT, but TES or SI definitely has a better Loam MU, as you can just win before the hate. If you still want to play FT, try chanting them the turn they're going to drop hate and going off the next, and make sure to maindeck Draw4s and IGGs. I'd play a faster version of the deck, to go off before the hate come down, if possible.

[emidln]

Play TES/SI and win? Not to bash FT, but TES or SI definitely has a better Loam MU, as you can just win before the hate. If you still want to play FT, try chanting them the turn they're going to drop hate and going off the next, and make sure to maindeck Draw4s and IGGs. I'd play a faster version of the deck, to go off before the hate come down, if possible.

Or you could just sideboard properly.

Bring in Brain Freeze if it's not main, Echoing Truth, and Rushing River. Take out Wipe Away, Tendrils #2/ETW, and Extirpate. If you have Dark Confidant or Thoughtseize, bring those in over Chants, otherwise your Chants are relegated to Time Walk duty. Remember that you don't need to remove Teeg to win the game (Teeg only affects Tendrils/ETW/IGG, not Doomsday into Brain Freeze) and that you have IGG and Doomsday tutorable to get back things that they made you discard.

[Reagens]

Play TES/SI and win?

Heh. I played TES before. For a while Loam was +60% of the field (I won that tournament with TES by the way). But since then (mostly) Thresh and Landstill (few decks, but competent player so in the higher brachets) are returning to be a real pain.

Or you could just sideboard properly.

Bring in Brain Freeze if it's not main, Echoing Truth, and Rushing River. Take out Wipe Away, Tendrils #2/ETW, and Extirpate. If you have Dark Confidant or Thoughtseize, bring those in over Chants, otherwise your Chants are relegated to Time Walk duty. Remember that you don't need to remove Teeg to win the game (Teeg only affects Tendrils/ETW/IGG, not Doomsday into Brain Freeze) and that you have IGG and Doomsday tutorable to get back things that they made you discard.

For easier reference I am currently using the list you played in the TES vs FT thread. I am well aware that the brain freeze kill is the preferred kill because I can ignore Gaddock.
Either way I think I will try the proposed sideboarding plan.

As a side note. If I would be playing ETW main I think I would let it stick in the deck because in the Loam version I play against there are no board sweepers. I know that sweepers are rather common in Loam decks, but in this case he has nine other anti-combo slots and if I can make 10 first/ second turn tokens it should be game. But I would be hesitant to play ETW since I think obtaining red is not that obvious without LED.

[Jak]

Heh. I played TES before. For a while Loam was +60% of the field (I won that tournament with TES by the way). But since then (mostly) ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and Landstill (few decks, but competent player so in the higher brachets) are returning to be a real pain.

TES has the better thresh MU. Landstill still has to be done, but I am sure TES is superior there. Do not take this as a flame, but why play this over TES? I would just like an honest answer and not a flame because I feel this is a legitimate question.

[undone]

WARNING THIS WILL SOUND LIKE A FLAME IT IS NOT INDENDED TO BE:

What makes this deck better in any way then TES? From what I see TES has a higher % vs any given deck. What decks is this not true VS? Did TES getting Vexing Shusher and making the CB MU better some what remove this decks advantage of sculpting over TES?

[Illissius]

WARNING THIS WILL SOUND LIKE A FLAME IT IS NOT INDENDED TO BE:

What makes this deck better in any way then TES? From what I see TES has a higher % vs any given deck. What decks is this not true VS? Did TES getting Vexing Shusher and making the CB MU better some what remove this decks advantage of sculpting over TES?

Because some people believe that FT has a better matchup versus a variety of decks, whereas other people believe that TES has a better matchup versus those same decks. If you are among the latter, then for you there is no reason to play FT. The only way to truly decide the question either way would be massive amounts of testing; alternately, watching the T8 results come in. Thus far, the only data we have says that both decks have made T8s (don't know about the ratio), and that one particular build of TES has a notably better matchup than one particular build of FT against one particular build of four color Threshold with CB/Top and Thoughtseize. (Of course, you can (and unless you plan to do massive amounts of testing, should) extrapolate from this whatever you like, but then we're back to speculation and not empirical evidence.)