[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

[mackaber]

I beat Landstill in my metagame playing tons of hate all the time. I don't mean to de-rail the thread, however, assuming you beat combo because you play Force of Will is ridiculous.

Quoted for truth. There seems to be the conviction among some o da peeps on this thread that loosng to storm with this dec has something to do with lacking playskill. I for my part am convinced it only has to do with lacking Counterbalnce/Top skill in the first 10 or so cards.

[Spare Parts]

Well, I am not afraid of combo (my metagame prediction), but today I got stomped 5-1 by friend's RGb Goyf Stompy with maindecked Price of Progress and few Fireblasts. Counterbalance is too slow, Pernicious Deed .. well ... almost too. PoP deals me 6 at least each time, Fireblast can't be stopped by CB. Goyf, Confidant and Lavamancer are very dangerous even alone, and I am running out of removal if trying to kill each of them. And the deck can come out of gates so quick that I can't even remotely match its speed.
Honestly I was surprised, I didn't expect this matchup to be so bad. Maybe I was just unlucky... and to mention he sideboards 4x Blood Moon - geez.

So, because I expect field full of aggressive decks I switched maindeck Counterspells for Spell Snares. I was trying out a single Kitchen Finks but it was terribly underperforming. I have no way to sacrifice it, so in the late game he is just a sitting duck that gains poor 2 life. And to Intuition tutor him, it costs 3(Intuition)+2(LftL)+3(Volrath's Stronghold)+3(Kitchen Finks itself)+draw. 11 mana and a draw is probably too steep price to gain 2 life :D There will be Shriekmaw in his place, it's better.

Sideboard so far looks like:

quite sure:
4x Hydroblast
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
still in testing phase:
2x Threads of Disloyalty
3x Leyline of the Void (sorry lego army man, no more room)

in contention:
Extirpate
Thoughtseize
Stifle



So to sum up my SBing plan:
Ichorid +3 Leyline +3EPlague. -4 CB -2 almost anything(spell snare?)
Goblins +4 Hydroblast + 3EPlague -4 CB -3 Spell Snare
RG beats variants (not loam) +4 Hydroblast +2 Threads -3 Intuition (no time for cute tricks) -2 EE -1 Witness (well, I dont like removing EE for Threads. Feels like wasted SB space. Still Threads are there mostly because of this matchup. Anyone has better idea?)
Dragon Stompy +4 Hydroblast +3 Krosan Grip -4 CB -3 Spell Snare ... and pray :D
Treshol_d +3 Grip +2 Threads -2 Vedalken Shackles -3 ??? (I can't find card to remove -_- - StP seems to be a most likely candidate, as I am replacing it with Threads and I already have enough removal for Tresholds 12 creatures)
Landstill +3 Krosan Grip -1 Shriekmaw -2 Vedalken Shackles

How good are Vedalken Shackles? They seemed too slow in almost every game I played. I know that they are great against Goblins, but shouldnt 7 SB cards be enough? I will certainly have to think about it, there are still 2 days left :)

[spirit of the wretch]

Hellyeah! - Goblins is like one of your worst matchups because they are simply too fast: Tarmogoyf is only a small speed bump for them (Matron -> Warren Weirding or simply ignore -> charge), Counterbalance does hardly affect them especially since they can just out-tempo you even if you have a Top down and all your engines are way too clunky to handle their assault and their card advantage + tutoring power... and I didn't even start talking about what happens when they attack your horrible manabase.

Quoted for absolute truth! If you don't run Swords your MU preboard is terrible! And that is if you DON'T lose the die roll

Blue Blasts are played over Engineered Plague because they're better in the Goblins matchup if you have a clock (here Tarmogoyf + Tog) because you can use them as tempo tools whereas Engineered Plague is rather clunky and doesn't affect them as much. Blasts being good in other matchups (TES, Burn, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam etc.) is just an additional bonus.

I play both of them:

3 Grip
4 BEB
4 Plague
4 Extirpate

Plagues are really flexible and additionally give you a better Combo MU postboard (be it Storm Combo, Ichorid or Cephalide Breakfast).

[landstill101]

First of all, I feel like Leyline is a 4 or 0 card. Second, how is your MAINDECK not beating TES? Are you not playing the same maindeck as everyone else? Bring in Hydroblast and Thoughtseize from the board, and I can't imagine you losing.

Well I did have a ton to type out to show that you obviously havn't played a blue deck against a good combo player yet but....... Bryant Cook beat me to it. He said it quick and short and 100% true. And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.


Spare parts, I also have problems with a boros deck like yours but It was because of the fact that both games I got a balance out and didn't get a top and got really unlucky, For you to win this matchup, you have to win with countertop, theres also some cool tricks to pull off if you need it like putting a goyf on top with stronghold to counter a helix, swords your own goyf to gain life, being at 4 life, stealing their confidant then swordsing it to gain life, There are many tricks to get around the burn, but you win this matchup with countertop plain and simple.( oh and don't take out shackles, its way to good if played right.)


Since people seem to be dredding this matchup soooooo much, I think we should talk about the stax/dragon stompy matchup, What in those decks are sooo horrible that you can't stop??? the only thing in stax is well smokestacks because it costs 4 and you can't counterbalance that, this deck has a high amount of 3 mana costers, which makes you life very easy against those, granite its nice to have a force for those first turn trinispheres but if you can get countertop out you should win the game. It worked for me really well on wednesday.

[thefreakaccident]

And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.

Yes you can slow them down, but deed doesn't do shit against ichorids, who are just going to give them more tokens... not to mention, a good ichorid player will get rid of your entire hand before trying to dread return (unless they go for broke), they'll at least hit all your countermagaic so they can kill you that turn... and don't you are say CB, if you are wasting time setting that up, you are going to loose to ichorid anyways.

[Nydaeli]

After talking to a couple of good friends and play testing some more, I changed my sideboard that I posted 3 posts ago from:

Sideboard:
3 extirpate
3 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
3 engineered plague
3 thoughtseize

To:
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the void
4 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 krosan grip
3 thoughtsieze

Sadly When I tested this, My worst matchup is against TES, which is sad since I'm playing blue.

Isn't this a compelling reason not to cut Meddling Mage?

[landstill101]

Yes you can slow them down, but deed doesn't do shit against ichorids, who are just going to give them more tokens... not to mention, a good ichorid player will get rid of your entire hand before trying to dread return (unless they go for broke), they'll at least hit all your countermagaic so they can kill you that turn... and don't you are say CB, if you are wasting time setting that up, you are going to loose to ichorid anyways.

Well now I didn't say that I would try to get counterbalance out, that is worthless, I'm talking about countering first turn breakthrough, countering the dread return, swords the ichorids, that is the way to slow them, I didn't say it would win, just slow them. If you swords ichorid, they have to kill you with tokens which Die to deed everytime. Your Message is saying that I sit back and only counter returns, I meant to counter early stuff to stop the first/ second turn kill to hopefully drop a deed on turn 3.

Nydaeli, A good Tes player knows how to get around it and if they need to they run pyroclasm side for wish. Plus when you play mage, next turn they go off because you don't have mana to counter.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Quoted for absolute truth! If you don't run Swords your MU preboard is terrible! And that is if you DON'T lose the die roll

Pardon me, but this seems like exceptionally weak reasoning. If I've done the math correctly (and I may not have), it looks like you have a 34% chance of having an opening hand capable of casting StP (so... StP plus a Tundra or fetchland). Your chance of drawing StP, of course, is 40%--but without white mana, that's irrelevant. With only two white-producing lands, that means that your most important piece of removal, as you call it, is easily nullified with Wasteland or Port, depending on the Goblins build. This means that as the game goes on, your ability to cast StP with only two Tundras is going to get much worse. Perhaps those odds present a reasonable risk--you're better players than I, so you tell me. Personally, they aren't odds that I'm comfortable with when it's a card choice that has significant ramifications for the deck (in terms of the manabase and consistency, especially in the face of attrition).

I have no doubt that some sort of one-drop is necessary for the deck to do well vs. Goblins. Likewise, I have no doubt that removal is essential. That's not at issue. The point that I would like to raise--that I tried to raise earlier--is simply whether Swords to Plowshares is really the best use of that slot, given the other in-colour options (as one-drops, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, and Pongify are the only real options that I can think of, and each has its own limitations. Deathmark too, I suppose, for what it's worth--which isn't much. Hell, if Lackey was your sole concern, REB would even work). Granted, each of those has strict limitations that Swords does not have. On the other hand, they put far less strain on the manabase, which means your odds of being able to cast them turn one (depending on the card... Ghastly Demise suffers from similar limitations turn one) go up. Alternately, perhaps some other form of turn one answer should be considered (Nimble Mongoose springs to mind as a possibility, sure, but there are others).

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.


As for Genesis, the most compelling argument I've seen you guys make against him is Stronghold's synergy with Counterbalance. That's not to be ignored, and I'd like to thank you for pointing it out.

[landstill101]

Pardon me, but this seems like exceptionally weak reasoning. If I've done the math correctly (and I may not have), it looks like you have a 34% chance of having an opening hand capable of casting StP (so... StP plus a Tundra or fetchland). Your chance of drawing StP, of course, is 40%--but without white mana, that's irrelevant. With only two white-producing lands, that means that your most important piece of removal, as you call it, is easily nullified with Wasteland or Port, depending on the Goblins build. This means that as the game goes on, your ability to cast StP with only two Tundras is going to get much worse. Perhaps those odds present a reasonable risk--you're better players than I, so you tell me. Personally, they aren't odds that I'm comfortable with when it's a card choice that has significant ramifications for the deck (in terms of the manabase and consistency, especially in the face of attrition).

I have no doubt that some sort of one-drop is necessary for the deck to do well vs. Goblins. Likewise, I have no doubt that removal is essential. That's not at issue. The point that I would like to raise--that I tried to raise earlier--is simply whether Swords to Plowshares is really the best use of that slot, given the other in-colour options (as one-drops, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, and Pongify are the only real options that I can think of, and each has its own limitations. Deathmark too, I suppose, for what it's worth--which isn't much. Hell, if Lackey was your sole concern, REB would even work). Granted, each of those has strict limitations that Swords does not have. On the other hand, they put far less strain on the manabase, which means your odds of being able to cast them turn one (depending on the card... Ghastly Demise suffers from similar limitations turn one) go up. Alternately, perhaps some other form of turn one answer should be considered (Nimble Mongoose springs to mind as a possibility, sure, but there are others).

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.


As for Genesis, the most compelling argument I've seen you guys make against him is Stronghold's synergy with Counterbalance. That's not to be ignored, and I'd like to thank you for pointing it out.

To start this off, I'm not gonna talk too much about the goblin matchup, mainly because the 4 tournies I have played this in, I have not played a single goblin player before, but as a experienced threshold and landstill player, a sturdy first turn answer to lackey is needed. If lackey lands and gets a good drop, a goblin player can kill you by turn 3 and average turn 4-5 which if they went first, you don't have time to drop a deed to blow and 1 tarmogoyf at this point is worthless with the new cards ran in goblins(the first strike goblin and the edict) having 1 tarmogoyf is not enough anymore, but I do know is that if you can get out shackles and have decent life you have the game pretty wrapped up, shackles combined with everything else is just as good as 2 plagues out.

Now after finishing a 25 man tourny and taking first, with the 4c list(with some tweaks of my own) I took down, white threshold, 2 different dark boros decks, a strange bounce land deck, belcher(twice), Rock, astral slide. After going 3-1-1 in tourny(losing to belcher and tieing rock) go into playoffs and win it all no prob. I really don't think this decks has to worry about the manabase, it doesn't matter if you have 3 different duals or 3 of the same, you can still use intuition to get the loam engine going to help smooth things out. All that matters is to get to 3 mana, it doesn't matter what 3, it just needs 3. And having a 4c build or 3c it doesn't make a difference.

Stp is an autoinclusion, not just because of the goblin matchup, but against ANY CREATURE IN THE FORMAT(cept goose of course), this is def. worth it just to add the best spot removal, also it helps with the explosives.


The one thing I have decided is that this deck does wonders with tog, tog is almost an auto inclusion too, its really amazing how much damage you can do with a tog, loam, and a top: it has won me many matches.

Also don't forget that the acadamy ruins does the 1cc for you, so that gives you 1-3cc for counterbalance.


Actually since I'm typing alot as it is, I would just like to explain a situation I used to counter a helix that should have killed me. I had countertop out, with like 4 mana, he plays helix to kill me, I top and see a land, deed, brainstorm. I draw the brainstorm and play it, for the first draw, I dredged life from the loam instead, dredged the top 3, drew 2 more then put back the loam on top to counter the helix which won me the game. The guy looked at me and just scooped.( he was at 8 life with me having a tog on table)


Well thats all for today, this deck is the best deck for my format right now and will be playing for a long time, hope to see everyone else do just as well.

[spirit of the wretch]

Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.

I think you got me wrong here. I wasn't arguing pro StoP (I don't play white in my build and still think it's the better option in my metagame), I argued pro Plagues/BEB in the sideboard, as you probably need to win the two games postboard against Goblins.

[Spare Parts]

I took "It's the Fear" to the local tournament (22 players, part of the national PoY series) yesterday and split the finals with Welder Painter, I lost only two games against B/w Pikula Homebrew in which I got terribly manascrewed and mulliganed a lot. I won the rest of the matches 2-0, even against 43land.dec in the quarterfinals but I have to admit it was pretty hard to win against. Today I'm judging national qualifiers but well I may write a short tourney report and my deck analysis to show changes to the decklist I made etc.
This deck works pretty well, but it needs a good player to start with. And Landstill101, I made the same play with Brainstorm into dredging LftL into putting it on top into CB countering a spell yesterday, my opponent was looking pretty hopeless at that point

[Mental]

Hey guys.

This thread is...well, not worth reading through. So I'll post my thoughts and if I say things that have already been mentioned, sorry.

Me and 2 friends tested this deck out on Friday night for a few hours. We played this build:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins

4 Goyf
1 Eternal Witness

4 Brainstorm
3 Top
4 CBalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Intuition
3 Deed
2 EE
2 Shackles
1 Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares

Exactly Gearheart's list on the first page. We played about 10 games against Thrash, preboard.

Here's what I noticed.
What the hell is up with Counterbalance and this decks curve? You almost never blind hit off CB. Let's check the number of cards in this deck that suck with Balance.

2 Shackles
3 Deed
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
2 EE
21 Lands

That's...half the deck. Yeah. Basically, Counterbalance sucks in this deck without top in play. That shouldn't be.
Deed is incredibly clunky in this deck. EE is usually better, and Deed can almost never come down fast enough to get the job done.
Shackles is really strong, like usual.
Also, what's up with LftL and no draw engine? This deck literally cannot develop card advantage, which is going to hurt you in a lot of MUs.
With those thoughts in mind, we cut from the original list:

3 Deed
1 Intuition
1 Shackles

and ended up with this list:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Intuition
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Loam

This list can much more consistently abuse Counterbalance and still has a very strong Intuition plan later in the game. Hierarch is a good target against aggro, since recurring it with Stronghold is downright nutty.
This list was very strong in testing, however, it often felt like a crappy version of Black Thresh.
I'm just not sure ITF is where it's at right now.
Comments?

[Spare Parts]

Mental, I'm not exactly sure that your reasoning is correct. I do agree that blind CB chances are not exactly bright, but I don't think that adding Ponder will affect them somehow drastically. Ponder is still only a sorcery speed cantrip, thus making your opponents able to outmaneuver CB effects.

Now to my tiny report, excuse my poor English.

My deck:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness

Spells
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
2 Threads of Disloyalty

I cut the Counterspells as they were always turn too slow, added Spell Snares instead and replaced missing 2cc cards in the deck with Hoofprints of the Stag.
As to cutting Vedalken Shackles and not cutting any Pernicious Deeds, I know that Shackles tend to be far better in the late game. I AM the late game. If i get there. But first, I need to make it there, and that's where Pernicious Deed really shines. That's why I need to keep all Deeds in the deck, to make sure I get there.
Also, always think when dropping CB during the 2nd turn - what are the chances that I will have to use the Deed first, and CB staying blind and/or destroyed?

Short report from the tournament:
1st round: Bw Deadguy Ale
I kept 2 land hand and never drew any other, while getting slaughtered by flurry of Wastelands, Sinkholes etc. 2nd game I mulliganed to 5 in attempt to have more than 1 land in the opening hand, and I failed. Bad luck.

2nd round: Ug madness
Although it may look easy, it's a pretty hard matchup actually. Madness has 4cc and 5cc cards (Deep Analysis, Roar of the Wurm, Arrogant Wurm) and Wonder nullifies any attempts on blocking with a goyf.
In the first game I didnt allow any discard outlet to stick, even though I had to Intuition for 3x Spell Snare to do so. 2nd game was close, with him having Wonder and attacking for 5 with Rootwalla and Mishra through my CB+Top, which eventually got destroyed by double Krosan Grip. I drew Deed to stop the bleeding and my goyf was in the meantime working on his life total. Then we traded the board (his aquamoeba + wurm vs. mine goyf), I topdecked SDT -> shriekmaw and bited his last 3 life off.

3rd round: Ub Fish-like-faerie-something
Something like Faerie Stompy, equipments + bitterblossom = bad times. I won 1st game thanks to double FoWing his creatures, and 2nd game thanks to resolved Plague naming faeries. Splash damage rules.

4th round: Rifter
Pretty easy, nothing to say. I had to stop Boil second game, and Abeyance which I did with already mentioned play Brainstorm -> dredge LftL -> put it on the top -> reveal with CB.

5th round: ID

quarterfinals: 43land.dec
Now that's where the real fun begins. 1st game I played it totally tight and had to make absolutely no mistake, at 8 life I started racing his Mishra with my goyf. He had Exploration, LftL and 3x Wasteland in the GY against my nonbasic manabase, but I still managed to make it on the wings of SDT and Intuition->LftL.
2nd game I sideboarded in graveyard hate (splash damage ftw!) + krosan grips and won it pretty handily, as i drew 2 stp for his 2 treetop village, extirpate for his LftL, FoW for his Crucible and he drew no Wasteland.

semifinals: the same Bw Deadguy Ale that I lost 1st round to due to manascrew. The games weren't interesting, as they all revolved around me trying to get manabase up and ready against his manadenial attempts. The only interesting moment was when he Extirpated my Tropical Islands only to find out I play single Breeding Pool as protection against such attempts.

In the finals I splitted it with the Painter Welder deck.

---------
So, what were my impressions from the deck and from the changes i made? Everything felt perfectly right. Hoofprints of the Stag were awesome even without Ponder, seems to me that SDT and Brainstorm abuse them enough. Also they have the much needed manacost of 2 and give +1/+1 to the goyf (being tribal, to grand total 7/8 from this deck alone).
Spell Snare was huge as well, I used it much more than Counterspell, only problem being decrease in 2 mana slot.
I didn't feel loss of Vedalken Shackles at all, confirming for me the impression that it is just a win more card in this deck. During first few turns sweep with sweepers, afterwards drop CB+Top - why use Shackles?
3 Intuitions may be right, I hate drawing 2 in the opening hand.
I didn't use the Academy Ruins during the day even once, and although with SBed Tormod's Crypt it may be working wonders, Wasteland may still in fact be better. Sometimes reviving Wasteland may help more than anything else.
Stronghold was pretty huge.
I hate Eternal Witness, but it's probably the neccessary evil.

[landstill101]

Hey guys.

This thread is...well, not worth reading through. So I'll post my thoughts and if I say things that have already been mentioned, sorry.

Me and 2 friends tested this deck out on Friday night for a few hours. We played this build:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins

4 Goyf
1 Eternal Witness

4 Brainstorm
3 Top
4 CBalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Intuition
3 Deed
2 EE
2 Shackles
1 Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares

Exactly Gearheart's list on the first page. We played about 10 games against Thrash, preboard.

Here's what I noticed.
What the hell is up with Counterbalance and this decks curve? You almost never blind hit off CB. Let's check the number of cards in this deck that suck with Balance.

2 Shackles
3 Deed
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
2 EE
21 Lands

That's...half the deck. Yeah. Basically, Counterbalance sucks in this deck without top in play. That shouldn't be.
Deed is incredibly clunky in this deck. EE is usually better, and Deed can almost never come down fast enough to get the job done.
Shackles is really strong, like usual.
Also, what's up with LftL and no draw engine? This deck literally cannot develop card advantage, which is going to hurt you in a lot of MUs.
With those thoughts in mind, we cut from the original list:

3 Deed
1 Intuition
1 Shackles

and ended up with this list:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Intuition
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Loam

This list can much more consistently abuse Counterbalance and still has a very strong Intuition plan later in the game. Hierarch is a good target against aggro, since recurring it with Stronghold is downright nutty.
This list was very strong in testing, however, it often felt like a crappy version of Black Thresh.
I'm just not sure ITF is where it's at right now.
Comments?

You should try the second list that he used that actually won in a huge tourny.( and of course add an off land like breeding pool or bayou to get out of extirpate range like spare parts says.) The togs if used right are a huge win, I don't know how many times I have won with just having a loam in grave and a tog in play, its pretty nuts how the dredge works with tog. Truly it sounds more like you just havn't been playing the deck right, I mean mental you're all over the landstill thread and your bashing deed? That seems strange when really this deck can play like landstill only it has a better late game with crazy recursion. When it comes down to it, this deck is like landstill as it slows the game down till late game then just owns, it just uses a different engine to win.

Mental you are really looking at this deck the wrong way, counterbalance in this deck is a must have or you might as well throw the deck away. The curve is actually one of the best in the game. It has a ton of 3cc, and if I recall 90% of the hate against counterbalance is ummmm well...... 3cc.( deed krosan grip, O stone, trygon predator.) so if I get to choose what random blind stuff I hit, I would like to hit the 3cc to stop the things that will blow up balance. Your worried to much about getting top out when realisticlly you have 7 tops with the inclusion of intuition.

The one big problem I do have with your list is the fact that if goyf gets extirpated you just scoop instantly. You cut down on shackles which ruins the chances of getting that, you don't have tog, and you run a 2/1 that can't get goyf after extirpate, and a 4/4 life gainer which gets swords so fast it doesn't get a swing in. Your deck is too vunerable to a single black mana.

ITF is the where it needs to be and can win a big tourny... It just needs the right pilot.


IF you truly want to tweak this deck, you don't play against a player who has played thrash alot and has huge experience with it when you don't have experience with ITF. You have to play against a variety and play against many players, its hard to get a feel for a deck when you only played one matchup. Also you might want to try and counter different things to see what the deck can do. In my testing threshold should sweat when they see you coming(this isn't saying you have a huge advantage, but the 2 decks are both good, and it usually comes down to the better skilled player and getting the other to fall into the traps.) Threshold players fear playing goyf against you, as well they should with shackles, but your list takes that fear out and lets them swing free because you also took out deed.


Stay close to the tourny list he used on the first page and you will be able to win.

[Shriekmaw]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?

[Spare Parts]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?

I don't think that BB is a control style card. It's aggro-control card, providing you with "forcefield" effect while your other creatures and disrupt are working on opponent's life total and cards.

Tarmogoyf is important in that he can shy away the attackers. If your opponent has two 4/4 attackers, he won't attack into a goyf, but he will attack into a BB tokens. Tarmogoyf can stop attackers, whereas BB only "forcefields" them.

Majority of games take 10 turns at least. Damage from BB stacks really fast.

BB cannot be recurred with Volrath's Stronghold, which is a big downside.

All in all, why not use Hoofprints of the Stag as I did in my deck this weekend? I was really highly satisfied with them. They generate (at worst) the same amount of P/T as BB per turn, and almost always much more. They are "tribal" as well, thus enlarging your goyf. They don't make you lose your own precious life.


Bitterblossom is certainly an interesting card, but only in an aggro-control strategy. Something like "equip SoFI/Jitte to 1/1 faerie, attack for 5, draw a card".

[landstill101]

I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.

I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.

I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.

What do you think?

Well spare parts hit the big reason that BB shouldn't be in the deck because of stronghold and that it doesn't actually stop attacks. But this card also doesn't work because it doesn't help in any way possible against an aggro deck like the burn aggro decks or goblins because you still take damage each turn and they will just over run you, and also goyf has somewhat bad synergy against deed but BB has even worse. Against decks like threshold or landstill, you games can easily go on longer than 20-25 turns which in turn will force you to blow a deed just to hit your own bitterblossom so you don't lose the game and in turn blow your countertop setup. But with goyf out, you arn't take damage and you can race someone or just block until you get board control.

[Shriekmaw]

Well spare parts hit the big reason that BB shouldn't be in the deck because of stronghold and that it doesn't actually stop attacks. But this card also doesn't work because it doesn't help in any way possible against an aggro deck like the burn aggro decks or goblins because you still take damage each turn and they will just over run you, and also goyf has somewhat bad synergy against deed but BB has even worse. Against decks like threshold or landstill, you games can easily go on longer than 20-25 turns which in turn will force you to blow a deed just to hit your own bitterblossom so you don't lose the game and in turn blow your countertop setup. But with goyf out, you arn't take damage and you can race someone or just block until you get board control.

You use Bitterblossom the same was you use goyf. You wait until the late game when you have the board under control and just win. Maybe its not a good card in the deck, but it should be explored as a possiblity. In control decks, I believe Bitterblossom is better than Goyf, if I ever put a 3 color landstill deck together, I would add the black splash for sideboard cards in addittion to the main deck Bitterblossom.

It's just another card to win you the game late, I think it has some merit. It should at least be explored. Remember, you play the card late, not early in the course of the game.

[Deep6er]

That's one of the problems. You want Tarmogoyf early in order to discourage your opponent from attacking, and to block more effectively. The late game is less important than the early game. Especially considering Vedalken Shackles. That card is insanely good the longer the game goes. Don't get me wrong, I like Bitterblossom a lot and want to find a good deck to put it in, but I don't think it's this one.

[Shriekmaw]

That's one of the problems. You want Tarmogoyf early in order to discourage your opponent from attacking, and to block more effectively. The late game is less important than the early game. Especially considering Vedalken Shackles. That card is insanely good the longer the game goes. Don't get me wrong, I like Bitterblossom a lot and want to find a good deck to put it in, but I don't think it's this one.

I understand completly where you are coming from. I didn't think Bitterblossom would be a better choice in your deck, but just wanted people to start thinking about it how good the card is. I would love to make a legacy faeries deck viable.

Keep up the good work and hopefully we will have the opportunity to play again in a tournament soon.