[Discussion] VoroshStill vs Its the Fear

[Fossil4182]

I've been looking at both of these decks for a while now and both seem to have some potential as being a great deck in Legacy. Kevin Binswanger suggested that Voroshstill has the edge over Its the Fear because of "the sturdier manabase and a perceived better resistance to early game assaults" Both decks pack cards like P. Deed, Countertop, Tarmogoyf ect. However the deck are quite different from one another and deserve some attention.

VoroshStill

Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible Of Worlds

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
3 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force Of Will
3 Smother

Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Breeding Pool

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

vs

Its the Fear

Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I think Its the Fear plays more like a control deck with Intuition, Shackles, StP and Life from the Loam. However Voroshstill has Edicts, more Engineered Explosives, Manalands/Wastelands + Crucible Of Worlds and Standstill. It may be a preference or maybe one is really superior to the other. At any rate, I thought this would make a good discussion to see which one ends up getting the edge or why you would play one over the other in any given instance.

[Bardo]

^^ Witness what two Legacy deck designers do with their dissatisfaction of Psychatog in Legacy. :)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

^^ Witness what two Legacy deck designers do with their dissatisfaction of Psychatog in Legacy. :)

...Not run it in either posted list? Both lists seem rather creature-lighter than I remember.

[Bardo]

I meant that both Vorosh and ITF are evolutions of Psychatog, in part. Dave said he started down the road to ITF when someone asked him for a Tog list over PM. And Vorosh evolved from my old Tog deck (which was templated from Kenji Tsumura's Tog deck from GP Beijing).

[Mister Agent]

I actually like both decks on what they do in the format.

Intuition vs Standstill

-These two draw engines are vastly different but they generally produce similiar results for their respected decks.

-Standstill is the main reason why landstill is still a deck to beat in the format. Standstill is definitely the best hard card drawer in the format in the right deck.

-Intuition on the other hand is just like fact or fiction in ITF except extremely efficient since it costs less and ITF is designed for the card.

-Intuition sacrifices raw power for versatility and resilency when compared to standstill but still produces huge outcomes in ITF.

I would also like to note that both Voroshstill and ITF can play as pure control decks as well with their respected draw engines. Both decks can also shift gears easily anytime and play aggro-control or control-aggro as well.

ITF does run swords to plowshares which is obviously brilliant against vast multiple of decks in legacy. Which is a substantial reason to run the 4th color white at the expense of having a fragile manabase. However for Bardo's deck you have a more stable manabase but can still run efficient removal like edict, smother, etc. Even though none of the black removal even compares to stp. But that's a balance of sacrificing that you have to consider when playing either deck for tournaments.

[Deep6er]

There are a couple of things that I don't like about VoroshStill though.

1) I hate Smother. Swords is straight up better. There's no argument.

2) Random one-of Crucible? It's not something you can rely on. Sure, you have arguments for being able to find it (Top, Brainstorm, Standstill), but it's not something you can reliably see with excellent efficiency.

3) 4 cards at the three cost slot? That means that if Threshold lands a Counterbalance against you first, they can effectively keep you off a HUGE portion of your gameplan. Then, with intelligent gaming around Explosives, keep you from playing any real magic. It's the Fear has multiple answers to that, and better ways of playing Magic under an opposing Counterbalance.

Those things are what originally made me like It's the Fear. If anyone cares to look back at the recent Mana Leak Day 1 (here) you'll see that I played something similar to VoroshStill. Another David Gearhart creation by the name of "Celebrate Relentlessness". What irked me about that build, was the fact that you still want to play Magic. Standstill is great, but for decks that utilize Counter/Top, you still want to play Magic. Standstill is kind of against you continuing to play Magic. The point of Counterbalance is to fulfill a similar purpose to Standstill. Generating card advantage, while not allowing your opponent to play Magic. However, Counterbalance generally accomplishes this plan better than Standstill does. That's my gripe with Standstill, I believe that it's outclassed by Counterbalance.

[HammafistRoob]

Voroshstill runs both CB and Standstill

[Deep6er]

Yeah, that's my point?

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible

[Nihil Credo]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible

There is an art of expressing otherwise sensible criticism without coming off like an ass, and I think you still need a lot of practice.

That aside, VoroshStill may not be the coolest name ever, but at least I can say it aloud without feeling like a Corporate Marketing Assistant.

[Mister Agent]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible

I think you also should try out a deck first before dissmissing it. You also can't really compare Voroshstill to something like UWb landstill considering both decks can play entirely different.

Sure UWb landstill has Voroshstill beat in the pure control department but that doesn't mean that Voroshstill isn't worth exploring. However voroshstill is efficient at switching roles and I think if you know when to switch roles voroshstill can be potent in legacy environments.

[Deep6er]

I'm confused. Does It's the Fear sound like something that would come from a Corporate Marketing Assistant?

Honestly, my deck names are pretty simple. Usually it's because they're stupid. I don't particularly care if people like names like "Solidarity", or "It's the Fear" because I like them a lot.

I think this one is actually decent because it ties into what the deck want to accomplish (which is to put the fear of God in you with Counterbalance).

Although I'm still curious if it sounds like something a Marketing guy would come up with.

Marketing guys in Italy would be weird then.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

That aside, VoroshStill may not be the coolest name ever, but at least I can say it aloud without feeling like a Corporate Marketing Assistant.

Why not compare these decks to traditional Uwbg Landstill, or WitchMawNephilimStill, as Im sure a certain Mod would advocate we call it

[Bardo]

1) I hate Smother. Swords is straight up better. There's no argument.

No argument.

I go back to the 4c (Swords) version every so often and then have that "Wasteland + Consistency vs. StP + 'less so'" argument every so often. It's not an open and shut sort of thing. For me, anyway.

In the abstract, yeah, StP is just so much better than anything else competing for spot removal at that cost, but, it's a little more complex when you begin to build your manabase and want to consistently hit all of your colored mana requirements in the face of hate, bad luck, etc.

2) Random one-of Crucible?

It looks weird, yeah; but it feels right. It's nice to occasionally draw into, but it isn't central to the deck either. It seems to come up in the right match-ups at the right time, but I'll definitely concede it's more an "intuition-thing" (not the card), rather than logical idea. I'm not sure if the correct number of Crucibles should be 0, 1 or 2. Again, after hundreds of games, 1 seems like the right number, for now and in the match-us I generally expect.

3) 4 cards at the three cost slot?

Well, there isn't all that much you need to hit at 3 (mostly 1s and 2s) and you have more 3s in the board (when you're more likely to face post-SB Grips anyway).

Against opposing CBs, you have Deed and EE for UUG or something.

Standstill is kind of against you continuing to play Magic. The point of Counterbalance is to fulfill a similar purpose to Standstill. Generating card advantage, while not allowing your opponent to play Magic. However, Counterbalance generally accomplishes this plan better than Standstill does. That's my gripe with Standstill, I believe that it's outclassed by Counterbalance.

Standstill plays a funny role in Vorosh, it isn't one-dimensional. Sometimes, you can just throw it down, tapping a Factory to pay the colored cost, to gain a modest psychological edge against weaker opponents, buy some breathing room to play out your plentiful lands or playing it when you're ahead on the board (an unopposed or overpowering Tarmogoyf, etc.). Sometimes Standstill just lets you play a more traditional Landstill/Draw-Go role; other times it's a reload like Ancestral Visions in T2 U/B Faeries.

Counterbalance in similar in letting you play different games at different times. Often, it just generates pivotal card advantage; protects resources; or just annoys the fuck out of your opponent. It depends.

Anyway, they're different cards that do different things in the same deck and they play along well with each other.

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill

It's a hybrid of a couple of decks. You could also say it's a slower version of Threshold...

The name is also terrible

Meh. To me, it's no worse than "Boros" (R/W aggro) or "Azorius" (U/W control); that's the place it's coming from: an in-game reference to the color combination.

Why not compare these decks to traditional Uwbg Landstill, or WitchMawNephilimStill, as Im sure a certain Mod would advocate we call it

Because, it's more mid-range/aggro than a more traditional Landstill. And call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me. And knock off the "a certain Mod" thing.

[Mister Agent]

I actually like diabolic edict in the smother slots but that's because I'd rather be safe then sorry in a random format like legacy. Although I am not sure which one is better but for now since edict can remove more spectrum of creatures I will remain with it. Considering with this change I actually run more blue/hydroblasts in the board as they are relevant in taking care of goblin lackeys and such.

Vorosh Landstill has a stable manabase and even in the face of general land disruption one crucible is all the deck needs. Voroshstill is resilient enough to where it doesn't need to heavily rely on crucible or else Vorosh would run more of them.

[freakish777]

creation by the name of "Celebrate Relentlessness".

LOL, out of curiosity, if you made a revision to that deck, would you change it's name to "Menace to Society" ??

[Deep6er]

Definite high-fives for knowing the reference.

And... yes, I totally would. It'd be fucking sweet.

[landstill101]

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that ITF got to fame with the list that had 2 maindeck togs, which in my opinion and experience of playing the deck for about a month now is prob one of the worst things you could take out of the deck, I would rather take out white and swords before tog. I think the deck should be changed to the list that actually won a tourny not his new list which hasn't been proven yet. For matchups both decks do very well against the meta, but if you put them against each other, ITF should always win the battle because of the recursion of any creature and the artifacts and such. With ITF I have not lost a long battled out game yet because of all the recursion.

[TopGun]

For matchups both decks do very well against the meta, but if you put them against each other, ITF should always win the battle because of the recursion of any creature and the artifacts and such. With ITF I have not lost a long battled out game yet because of all the recursion.

Really? I haven't tested them against each other yet, but I would have bet on VoroshStill because of the more mana + wastelands. Usually in control vs. control matchups, mana superiority is what wins it. I was gonna test this match soon anyway though...so, I'll either be able to verify your results, or call you a filthy liar.

[landstill101]

Really? I haven't tested them against each other yet, but I would have bet on VoroshStill because of the more mana + wastelands. Usually in control vs. control matchups, mana superiority is what wins it. I was gonna test this match soon anyway though...so, I'll either be able to verify your results, or call you a filthy liar.

Well the one Thing I can say to this and I'll let your testing prove if i'm right or not is that in VoroshStill, you have 1 Crucible and thats it, you have to draw it, but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.