[Discussion] VoroshStill vs Its the Fear

[Illissius]

That's unless they have Countertop.

[Hanni]

but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.

Intuition has to resolve first. Though I do believe Intuition is much stronger.

However, it's only going to matter in game 1... postboard, the matchup is going to be all about Extirpate and Counterbalance control.

The other thing I'd like to mention is that comparing ITF to Vorosh is on the same level as comparing it to actual Landstill (and even Dreadstill). What I mean is, Intuition changes the entire dynamics of the deck... so even though both decks are control decks running Deed, Counterbalance, and Goyf, they are still very different.

[Anusien]

Pretty sure that comparing them head to head is like comparing Ponza to RDW or Sligh: pretty freaking useless. You have to look at them in the context of the metagames in which they will be played. I would doubt that one deck is strictly better than the other so you have to look at which games are better or worse for either deck.

The difference is basically this:
It's the Fear:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

VoroshStill:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Standstill
1 Counterspell
3 Smother
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Breeding Pool

VoroshStill has 3 extra lands, different removal, and Crucible + Standstill instead of Intuition + Witness, Loam and the Shackles. Then VoroshStill (in that list) has the 4th Counterspell instead of the 4th Counterbalance.

So basically, can you afford to wait the extra turn to play Intuition instead of Standstill, and do you need the extra lands or the recursion engine? Ironically I decided to not play a more midrangey deck for once and looked at VoroshStill because I felt like I needed the lands and would rather not wait for my draw.

A lot of this may be determined by the players you play with too. David Gearheart may feel that he needs some extra attrition abilities to win close games with some of the better Threshold players that live in his area. I felt that basically the only way I lose a lot of my games in the metagame I was playing in was to get screwed on mana or lose my win conditions to Extirpate, so I went with the (seemingly) more robust deck.

I'm definitely not trying to say VS or ITF is better or worse definitively. For my purposes with a lack of testing, I picked up VS to learn. I am definitely attracted to ITF as well, but I've been burned by too many Intuition-Loam decks.

[TopGun]

Well the one Thing I can say to this and I'll let your testing prove if i'm right or not is that in VoroshStill, you have 1 Crucible and thats it, you have to draw it, but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.

In my testing, at least 1st game, I do have to give the nod to ITF. The recursion doesn't play nice with no access to extirpate. Apart from the busted early goyf/standstill beatings, it didn't feel like Vorosh had much chance in the long game.

Also, the shackles, witness, and goyf can all be placed on top of your library with the recursion lands to give you the right cost to use counterbalance effectively.

Anyway, I don't recommend choosing one over the other based on just this particular matchup. There are so many viable tourney worthy decks to choose from, you'd really be beating the odds to run into each other.

All this is IMHO.
-TG

[Fossil4182]

The idea's been floated or at least alluded to, but what about cutting White from Its the Fear? I know that StP is by far the best creature removal in the format and having access to it gives you a great answer. However Ghastly Demise, Smother and Edict all provide quick answers although not as good as StP. The more stable mana base improves your matchup against decks that would exploit the weaker mana base of the deck.

Also, landstill101

I could not find the list with 2 Togs in it so if you know where it is, I would change the deck list that I have.

[kicks_422]

Forgive me for asking, but isn't playing Deed alongside Counterbalance dissynergy? Or is it simply waiting for the right time to play both of them?

[Nihil Credo]

Basically, if you've got CounterTop going, chances are you won't have to Deed the board away anytime soon. Just don't drop turn 2 Cbalance after your opponent opens with Vial or Ancient Tomb...

[Fossil4182]

Forgive me for asking, but isn't playing Deed alongside Counterbalance dissynergy? Or is it simply waiting for the right time to play both of them?

It would seem like it, however getting a counter top engine up and running gives such control over the board that its worth running. Deed will blow it up on occasion, but it gives you the reset button that Threshold lacks and Deed is simply one of the best cards and Legacy. Ideally, you put out Eternal Witness when you blow Deed and use Stronghold to recur Deed. Running 4 Counterbalance usually means that if you need to blow Deed, odds are you'll be able to resolve a second one fairly quickly.

[Anusien]

I strongly believe Pernicious Deed is the best card in Legacy right now. It's worth the occasional dis-synergy to run the card.

[frogboy]

I like ITF's engine, but I'm more of a fan of how Vorosh can actually make all of it's land drops. Someone should hybridize the two abilities.

[Anusien]

I like ITF's engine, but I'm more of a fan of how Vorosh can actually make all of it's land drops. Someone should hybridize the two abilities.

You mean, run more than 20 lands in a control deck that wants to hit at least its first 4 land drops using only Brainstorm to dig? That's one of the biggest boons to Vorosh in my opinion; not losing to worse players because of mana screw.

[Deep6er]

Just as an aside, if either of you cared to look in the It's the Fear thread, you'd see that I'm testing 23 lands. Reading is tech. :)

[Happy Gilmore]

Just as an aside, if either of you cared to look in the It's the Fear thread, you'd see that I'm testing 23 lands. Reading is tech. :)

Is one of those lands a Cephalid Coliseum? I would give you a major high five for building a very simple card drawing engine into your Loam strategy.

[Deep6er]

No, Coliseum would be terrible in It's the Fear. Wasting a land drop is awful. Coliseum fits into other decks, not It's the Fear.

[Happy Gilmore]

No, Coliseum would be terrible in It's the Fear. Wasting a land drop is awful. Coliseum fits into other decks, not It's the Fear.

You have the LFTl, you have the engine... it could be good. It was the nutz in extended, used primarily in Madness Tog. The only difference is that they used Gifts Ungiven.

[Anusien]

I've tested Coliseum in Loam decks before, and Deep6er is right. Losing your land drop is a pain in the ass. Sure you save a few mana comparable to cycling lands, but the ability to make land drops every turn quickly negates that benefit.

[Illissius]

Basically, with Loam and three Sandbars you pay to draw two cards (the third goes to recouping Loam); with Loam and a Coliseum you pay and your land drop for the same (counting tapping the Coliseum as another ). So it's only one mana fewer, and all else being equal, I would much rather pay the extra than the land drop.

The advantage of Coliseum is that a single nonbasic land which damages you is less of a price to pay than three nonbasic lands which come into play tapped; also, you don't actually need to use Loam-Coliseum very many times before you gain a significant advantage in cards.

What I think it comes down to is that (for a deck like this which actually values its land drops), cycling lands are something you build around as the primary draw engine for the deck, or otherwise it's not worth the Sandbars, whereas a Coliseum is something you can just throw into the deck because it might come in useful, but won't suck too much even if it doesn't. So I could see going either way. In a four color deck with 22 lands, I would lean to the side of "don't include". (As the 23rd land, though, it's a different matter.) (edit: I was basing this off Deep6er's recent tournament list which had 22 lands)

[Anusien]

My other concern is that Coliseum is slow, both to use and to recoup any advantage. Since you pretty much have to go Loam, get lands in hand, Coliseum, pitch those lands trying to get relevant cards. The problem with Coliseum in ITF is making a slow deck slower.

[jazzykat]

After having played both decks quite a bit, with granted a ton more time logged on with ITF I can safely say that while ITF may lack raw draw power it has 2 things which make me prefer it in a a meta that doesn't have a ton of non basic hate.

1. StP over smother. No one argues this. StP wins, smother is more useful than I gave it credit for but is not flexible enough.

2. Counterbalance abuse vs. raw draw power. While Vorosh wins hands down in raw draw power with standstill, I am frustrated sometimes because I either have to chose to set up an "ancestral" and know that my carefully created CB/Top stack on my library is going to get scooped up into my hand or not play the standstill which to me seems ludicrous.

While, you can use brainstorm to reset your stack the way you liked it, or pop a fetch to try again I find myself often stabilizing very low in life and I really do need to keep a tight lid on the game at that point.

Where ITF really shines is the amazing ability to not only quickly set up the CB/Top engine with intuitions, but to have more shuffle effects in intuition as well as the ridiculously helpful loam in the late game to get chaff off the top of your deck and get down to good stuff. There is also the trick of using academy and volrath's stronghold to put different things on top of your library.

With ITF you never seem to be penalized when you have a CB/Top lock out and it is very good at getting you one quickly.

As to which is better.... I think it depends on 2 things:

1. Your metagame
2. Your preference/proficiency with the deck.



I prefer having stp and the pure elegance of ITF over the raw power and resiliency to non basic hate that Vorosh Still has.

With ITF you either play near perfect or lose, Vorosh Still because it is so busted allows for more ham handedness. So with all this said I think this thread while in principle makes sense in being here the comparison to put it in car terms is like comparing a Viper to a Lotus Elise...completely uncomparable at any meaningful level to discern an objective and hands down best in all situations.

[Bardo]

With Vorosh, for me, it always came down to Wasteland vs. StP. So, the control-hostile configuration vs. the anti-aggro / aggro-control package (StP). In creature-heavier metagames (less control), (such as what I was expecting at the Vancouver, WA tournament before I bailed), I advocate what I have filed into 60 (+15) KMC sleeves.

4c Vorosh

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives*
1 Crime & Punishment
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

* Or 3 EE / 0 C&P, up to you. C&P is nice with Counterbalance when you want to stop, uh, a hardcast Djinn Illuminatus?

Sideboard is a little more than 3c -- usually containing some combination of BEB/Hydroblast, Plagues, Grips and GY hate (Extirpate, Crypt, Wheel of Sun & Moon, etc.).

In a metagame where control is more prevalent, Wasteland / Crucible is stronger than Smother is weak (relative to StP). So, yeah, tune for the field.