[Deck] Ichorid

[HammafistRoob]

I was looking into playing Ichorid in legacy, I played it in type 1 with some sucess so I know the general mechanics of the deck(yes the decks are VERY different). But I was just wondering what cards are the most effective at fighting opposing combo decks(FT, TES, mirror).

I just like how the deck can pull out early wins very easily if minimally disrupted. It's pretty ill.

[Joe_C]

Im thinking overall speed and unmask/therapy are the only prayer against combo. The mirror i guess is pretty much leyline and hopefully you can race them if you drop leyline and they dont. I have'nt settled on a list yet. I like wraith in there, but then again I like unmask's protection and such. Im looking for the "perfect numbers" so I can try to meld the aggressive combo build and the slow roll consistent build. I hopefully will play this tomorrow in milford, so wish me luck in taking down a tourney with this monster of a deck we have here

Note: Would it be bad to go to 61 cards?

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd say don't go to 61, just because in reality it does really affect the numbers game, and that's what dredge is all about.

As for the turn 1 kills, IIRC it almost always requires the following:

LED, Dredge creature x2-3, Breakthrough, Land, DA (in hand or early dredged) AND hitting the Dread Return, Narcomoeba x3 (minimum), and Bridge x3 (minimum), and Flame-Kin Zealot in those cards. Basically, it's a suicidal hand and a lucksack dredge session.

Realistically, this is a very rare occurrence. 25% in a playtesting session is a very high number, I'd say the turn 1 kill is probably under 10%, statistically. But Dredge is a dumb mechanic, and you can see 4 Bridge, 4 Moeba, and a DR off the top 12 cards.

Against TES, I'd highly suggest the stupid hands like that. In the mirror, it's tricky. If you can't combo out, they can nuke your Bridges with a Therapy flashback. I personally aim to hit Ichorids by turn 2, so I can nuke theirs automatically at my EoT.

I'm still uncertain about Leyline, as it requires mulliganing to in the post-sb games. I don't really like that strategy, I'd rather just hope they mull often to find theirs, and have ways to get answers for it. You require so much in the opening hand to have a fast play that each card you lose (including the Leyline) is such a hindrance. I think it gives a false sense of security, a lot of people that have played it against me think it buys them a lot of time, and usually it won't.

[kicks_422]

In the mirror, board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor. Seeing either one means you've got an advantage of some sort. You don't have to mull into both.

I'd like to ask my question a bit earlier in the thread again... How have you all found Cephalid Sage? I've replaced it with Woodfall Primus and have been loving it, as an answer to MD hate which is usually in noncreature form (e.g. Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.)

EDIT: Actually, you only need 2 Bridges minimum. You only need 6 zombies to awing for the win with Zealot.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Street Wraith and Unmask should be played in tandem with each other, not one or the other.

Combo matchup isn't that bad unless they run Brain Freeze or go off turn 1. Them winning turn 1 isn't something you can do anything about. Obviously you can beat Spring Tide and Solidarity with teh nutz and a Therapy (Usually, anyway) naming FoW.

TES and Belcher are the worrisome ones, and FT is trouble if they run Brain Freeze. I play FT, and I use BF. They hit a third critter, I chant, go off next turn. Sometimes if they know I run brain freeze I have to grab Extirpate/Echoing Truth against Ichorid Beatz, but barring that it can be a pretty easy matchup for me.

I think Earwig Squad would be an acceptable DR target as it can grab the win conditions out of Storm builds like FT. That would screw me over. How many does TES run? I've never played it or played against it. LMK if that sounds like an option...I'll of course play test, but I'd like to know SOON as I'm going to GenCon.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

I think Earwig Squad would be an acceptable DR target as it can grab the win conditions out of Storm builds like FT. That would screw me over. How many does TES run? I've never played it or played against it. LMK if that sounds like an option...I'll of course play test, but I'd like to know SOON as I'm going to GenCon.

Read the card again. If you reanimate Squad, nothing happens.

[Joe_C]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colisuem
4 City of Brass

4 ichorid
4 bridge from below
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 street wraith
2 careful study
2 lions eye diamond
2 deep analysis
4 cabal therapy
2 breakthrough
1 flame kin zealot
2 dread return
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
3 unmask

Well, if my ichorids show up in the mail before I need to leave to go to the tourney, this is the list I am playing. I ran this over a ton last night and feel good with it. change I may make -1 coliseum +1 wraith(ichorid activations are good/so is the free draw), or that maybe should be study #3

Last minute input? Anyone?

[DeathwingZERO]

That's a very tight combo, and not essentially abusing the best of both worlds. How's it been treating you so far? Sage I've still got a bit of a hard on for, so seeing lists that don't abuse his free dredge ability always makes me cry inside.

A few other questions:

How has the 2 DR been treating you? Ichorid beats been stable enough to not have to worry about the combo every game?

How about the lesser amounts of Dredge creatures? This list is only using 10, while I'm still really irked about only running 11. They hitting consistently enough @ 10? Also, have you tried -1 Thug +1 Stinkweed? It seems on paper that 1 more dredge would help in some cases.

You seeing the 2 ofs often enough to warrant them?

I have other thoughts about the deck, but am on the verge of crashing. I'll check back later in the afternoon for more.

[Joe_C]

actually, I made an error in that list, I fixed it now. I do run 4 stinkweed, so I run 11 dredgers. The 2 ofs that I run are really essentially conditional cards. Even with unmask in the deck, dumping your hand turn 1 to a breakthrough, led etc puts us in a luck only position with the dredge. I can play the conservative game and also combo early if I get the hand to do so. The 2 dread return has been working well, sage got removed in favor of more disruption and since I am only running 2 dread return, his presence isnt needed, Also I have been hitting consistent early ichorid beats, which turns into zombies etc... etc... Often I get to less than 10 cards in my library on turn 3, which unless god hates me=victory.

Im feeling pretty good with this now, but real life performance will tell the story. i will write a report when the tourney is over!

[kyan]

In the mirror, board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor. Seeing either one means you've got an advantage of some sort. You don't have to mull into both.

I'd like to ask my question a bit earlier in the thread again... How have you all found Cephalid Sage? I've replaced it with Woodfall Primus and have been loving it, as an answer to MD hate which is usually in noncreature form (e.g. Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.)

EDIT: Actually, you only need 2 Bridges minimum. You only need 6 zombies to awing for the win with Zealot.

Same, I board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor for the mirror, and even for threshold variants. No need to mull much since it's either you get the leyline or the vapor.

I usually board in Woodfall Primus over Cephalid Sage. But, now I'm thinking of removing Sage entirely and putting W. Primus maindeck. I'd rather get an Angel of Despair because someone piloting an animator deck often plays a Blazing Archon. But maybe Primus would do in a pinch.

[kyan]

Uhm, can anyone help me with Pithing Needle targets? I need to keep a list so that I won't forget to name the usual suspects for each color in legacy.

Can anyone help me out? Much appreciated.

[Joe_C]

Uhm, can anyone help me with Pithing Needle targets? I need to keep a list so that I won't forget to name the usual suspects for each color in legacy.

Can anyone help me out? Much appreciated.

well:

Tormods crypt
mogg fanatic
seige gang commander
wasteland
umezawa's jitte
pernicious deed
manlands

these are the ones i have seen that effect us the most. Pretty much anything that allows them to get our bridges out of the grave suck for us

[Dark_Cynic87]

So....would Unmask and Street Wraith be the way to go at say...gencon?

I don't know the Indy metagame, so it's a tough call. I was there in '04, but that doesn't help a bit.

Just thinking that more protection and uncounterable draw would be safer at a bigger event sure to be chuck-full of FoW's and high-powered lists.

Has Eternal Witness been considered as a DR target? I was thinking about it, and you could use Echoing Truth with Eternal Witness to get rid of tokens like EtW or to a MUCH lesser extent the mirror-match. Go DR-->Witness--> Response pop led--> grab E. Truth and have UUU in your mana pool for it.

LMK what u guys think.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT:

Here's the list I'm running atm:

CREATURES--27
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Street Wraith
3x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage

SPELLS—22
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Unmask
2x Deep Analysis
2x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
2x Breakthrough

LAND--11
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
1x Dakmor Salvage

I actually need to figure out a sideboard appropriate for an unknown metagame. Included will be the obvious:

4x Leyline of the Void
3-4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle OR Chalice of the Void (Not sure which will be the best for an unknown meta)
1x Ancestor's Chosen (I know this isn't your guys' first pick, but it has served me well)
2-3x ???

[klaus]

@kyan:

well:
Tormods crypt
mogg fanatic
seige gang commander
wasteland
umezawa's jitte
pernicious deed
manlands

Some stuff to add:

- Engineered Explosives ! (Landstill, It's the Fear, Aggro Control)
- Arcbound Ravager (Affinity)

wastelands are hardly ever worth naming
most decks packing manlands (Landstill, Noughtstill will run Engineered Explosives and/or Crypt - so naming one of thosemakes more sense, unless you get to draw and play your 3rd Needle )

[DeathwingZERO]

Needle targets (that are some good against us):

Tormod's Crypt, Pernicious Deed, Mogg Fanatic, Engineered Explosives, Faerie Macabre, Siege Gang Commander, Wasteland (waste-lock based decks tend to slow us to a crawl, but I wouldn't say it's a common thing to call out)

Secondary targets (also some good against us, but require more effort/don't actually kill us):

Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, Umezawa's Jitte, Survival of the Fittest, Sensei's Divining Top (LUL Thresh), AEther Vial

[kyan]

Thanks a lot for the tips on needle targets guys! ^_^

I'll list them down. Sometimes, I forget to call some cards, most notably Deed and Macabre because I rarely encounter them. And when they do get to play them, it gets so hard to win.

Good thing there are backup plans in this deck should your bridges / tokens get nuked. I swear, DR a 15/15 Grave Troll after they nuke my bridges with a creature sac brings such a smile to my face.

[Joe_C]

Well, I played at Milford. Went 2-3 drop.... I got the most shitty luck off dredges today. Unbelievable. I had gone through over 30 cards and no ichorid, no moeba a few times. My hands were solid, I liked the way the list behaved. I just got driven out by bad dredges. This is what I played:
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Colisuem
4 City of Brass

4 ichorid
4 bridge from below
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 street wraith
3 careful study
2 lions eye diamond
2 deep analysis
4 cabal therapy
2 breakthrough
1 flame kin zealot
2 dread return
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
3 unmask

sb:
4 pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 chain of vapor
1 unmask
2 ray of revelation

I dont think my poor dredging today is worthy of a report, but I can say I didnt make any mistakes with play, just poor luck, I had engines going early and they just didnt develop for me in my losses

[DeathwingZERO]

Ya, I hear you on the bad dredges. Last time I played the deck I went 1-2 drop and randomly turned around for a 3-1-1. It really is probably one of the most unforgiving combo decks I've played. It's like a little emo child you just kinda have to constantly harp on to make something of itself.

[kicks_422]

I have it right beside me when I sleep so that the deck would feel loved. I even tell it bedtime stories about figures of the underworld to keep it in the mood.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm pretty certain once I made the changes to accommodate how I like to play, it started to understand what I wanted it to do. I'm very superstitious about decks, especially combo ones. They either crap out on you, or go off like a charm. I believe part of that is the mutual understanding of how to get from point A to B.

Surely it has nothing to do with the hundreds of hours I've put into goldfishing and testing it against commonly seen decks in my metagame, as well as scouting for tech in my sideboards.

Surely.