karn iosnt great, only time to use the guy is when A you need a forced blocker or B your oppo is unable to play sometihng like STP (which would mean you're ganna win 90% of the time anyways). I doubt youwant to see your crucible flying to the RFG zone for a lousy 3 life
i know you can block things with it but do you really have to do it, i can remember trapping a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh player with 6 fetches out (which was a funny sight though) but i dont think you will hit such things a lot to make it worth while
or the US meta is a 180 degree turn from the meta over here in the netherlands where its a SB card at best for the time you accually face ceph breakfast (faced it once in 6 tournies, hardly saw it either)
also for the US ammong us, is solidairity played over there? as i havnet seen anything about how crappy the MU is (game 1 20% tops depending on build, post bord prob more 30%ish
Simply put - Karn is win more. If you are in a situation where you can attack with your artifacts, you are going to win anyways - just attack with a Factory or Magus or Angel or whatever. Karn is a waste of time.
DeathScythe - I'm assuming you are saying Suppression Field is a sideboard card at best, and I would tend to agree, in general. In certain metas, you will find that you side it in often enough that you are better off maindecking it.
In terms of Solidarity, I've never had a problem with it. Like most combo, your goal is to lock them out of being able to 'go off' and we play a lot of cards that will do that to Solidarity (Chalice, Trinisphere, Armageddon, etc.). It's not uncommon to lose the first game, though, if you don't know what they are playing and end up with an anti-aggro opening. Winning games 2 and 3 after boarding out all creature control becomes much easier, though, unless they are really expecting Stax and have more than just a Rebuild or Hurkyll's. If you are having a lot of trouble, sideboarding Rule of Law kills them since they are then forced to find bounce for your artifacts and the enchantment all while trying to counter your board control. You might lose occassionally, but I've never seen it to be anywhere near 30-70 post board in their favor (I would put it at 65-75 : 35-25 in Stax favor post board).
- FB...
I know the MU well enough to know what's good and what isnt (have the pleasure of having 'the dutch solidairity player' close to home and we know each other good enough), chalices arent my favorite to play against it on as the deck has enough option to get rid of it or take advantage of the rather slow clock staxx has, biggest problem is if they run into double remand or something else insane giving them 4 lands and eat your deck in response to either geddon, 3sphere or w/e they dont want to see. Overal annoying MU to get. And no, im not sbing rule of laws as there's very few combo around to make it worth it (although could drop one in there as im mad enough to sb 1 enlightened tutor)
as for suppression field, your right, but I would rather not play staxx in a heavy ceph breakfast meta for example, TES or Ichorid woudl be a better choice imo
It's kind of the point of making Stax viable in any meta. Suppression Field helps.Originally Posted by DeathScythe
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Just have to ask DeathScythe, why the 1 enlightened tutor in the sb? Just sounds messed up to me. I can't think of a matchup that I'd want to bring in a 1 of tutor thats hurt by 8 of my mb permanents. Whats your list? Mind of you post it, that might clear up a little of my confusion.
About s. field, yeah, I wouldn't play stax in a healvy breakfast meta, but when you only run into one once in a while it helps to have it in the sb. That and fields just hurt the tempo of so many other cards in so many different legacy decks.
as you requested my current list
Mainboard
3 exalted angel
3 magus of the tabernacle
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
4 ghostly prison
2 moat
2 oblivion ring
4 crucible of worlds
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere (yes 3, not going to change)
3 mox diamond (yes another 3ish and i'm not gonig to change this one either
2 flagstones (right number for me, played with 3 and I didnt like it so 4 is out of the question)
1 gods' eye, gate to the reikai (thing is coolish but thinking about replacing it by a canopy
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
7 plains
sb
3 aura of silence
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 trinishere (yes a sb one IF i want to switch to 4)
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightned tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
I know this is a bit of an odd list but i've been tweaking the deck to fit my playstyle, i'll explain a few cards/choices
3 trini's mb, 1 sb -> the cards is nuts against several decks and is able to delay my opponent if i play it at the right moment, but i dislike it as a 4-off mainboard. reason i got one sb is for the comboish MU in which you really need 4 of these
3 mox Diamond -> the whole uberplan is nice but i still find it a bit of BS to make it your maingoal, if you go T1 sphere it's cool, but it's not a gamewinner as i experienced. So if the 'T1 i do something which costs 3 mana' isnt a mainplan 4 diamond is a bit over the top, 3 is a good number
2 flagstones -> can't remember how many times i drew more than 2 making the card utterly useless, a 2-off is good enough for me. For the record, yes i played with 3.
gods' eye, gate to the reikai -> love the card as it gives me a constant smokestack on 2 + kill in one, though recently it didn't work to well for me so im thinking about testing a horizon canopy for it (that is if I am not an idiot and trade it away, again)
LAst but not least, Enlightened tutor -> Reason A: i found it in my highlander leftovers one day before a legacy tourny (went 3-1-1 swiss, got asswhiped by welders in QF) and i though, why the hell not.
Reason B: Find me cocky or w/e but my ingame skills (which some people here can confirm) are good, my sbing skills however are crappish (i really need to start playing more tournies, testing weekends and such). It;'s not rare that i get a situation in which i want to board 5 cards in but i do want to put 3 tormod's crypt en 3 aura's in (just as example not saying it happened) so my quick thought idiotic solution was, if i drop a tutor in my sb i can board in 2 of each and a E tutor which can find both of them so im basicly playing 3 of each.
Reason C: When you boarded you play less 4-offs and more 3 and sometimes 2 copies of certain cards, so this will make your draw more random. If you play even a random E tutor you can somewhat manipulate what you would draw (aka, find the CoW for wastelock or go T1, tutor T2 3sphere on combo or w/e)
Yes the card backfires with chalice and 3sphere but I was willing to take the risk.
Great list. I've found the God's Eye to be awasome. Also, I don't know why anyone needs four Trinisphere it's not like it's great against combo or Threshold. 3 is perrrrfict! I've thinking about cutting another mox diamond, too, for versatility in land. I think a single ghost quarter and maze of ith are really good.
have you thought about using Blinkmoth Nexus? That card is great in the mirror against exahausted angel and against the Sea stompy//Fairy Stompy.
I'd rather run Horizon canopy over the thrid Flagstone becuz you need a draw engine.
I think you should cut 2 smokestack for Windborn Muse because he is solid shut downs against dreadnought decks and espeically Icnorid combo. Also, cutting just one Crucible of the World for a Oblivion Ring would help against those dreadnoughts or Radkos pit Dragons.
Hold on a minute. I thought one of the worst problems of Stax was poor consistency, and one of its main strengths was the universal irritation that its lock pieces provide. That said, the way to build a classical Stax deck is to use a ton of 4-ofs, and only use 3-ofs when space doesn't permit the fourth copy. This in turn breeds consistency, as you can expect to get roughly the same cards every game.
This list has a bunch of singletons, which makes me wonder how likely you are to see these cards, and how likely it will be that you see them in the wrong situations. Type 1 Keeper had a bunch of silver bullets, but also ways to get them. With just 1-3 of so many cards and one card-advantage-losing Tutor (that can't even fetch the singleton land), doesn't the consistency suffer a huge blow?
I'm wondering why there is this recent shift in philosophy: from a ton of 4-ofs, to adding all manner of more narrow answers. Secondly, does the addition of more diverse but narrow answers actually help the deck more than it hurts it?
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Who told you that? Play the good stuff! Being versatile is important, I know about that first hand!
Being versatile is important, but you're talking about adding a bunch of silver bullets without ways to grab them, so the consequence is greatly decreased consistency. Who cares if you have the perfect answer when it's buried in your deck? Stax doesn't have powerful sift, draw, or tutor effects. Recurring a Canopy is cute, but it's still slow when searching for 1-ofs.Who told you that? Play the good stuff! Being versatile is important, I know about that first hand!
Re: Smokestack to Muse: shouldn't 4 Prisons, 2 Moats, and 3 Magus be enough anti-creature tech? I'd probably use the Muse over Moats cause I'm on a budget, and Moats prevent my ground crew from attacking.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
I'd have to agree with Kirbysdl a lot. Consistency helps this deck a lot. Even with all the 4 ofs staxs has a problem in that it can just randomly loose to itself now and again. You are taking away the consistency for answers you just hope to find? I can not imagine the singleton enlightened t in the sb as that much help in finding your stuff. Not having access to your versatility doesn't help the deck jack. Stax can not afford to draw a tutor that has already been screwed by your chalice.
I can definately see running the 2 moats and not running any windborn, I'd probably stop running my windborn if i had the moats. I can also see only running 3 trinispheres, thats what my list runs and it often feels like the right number.
You run 4 smokestacks and 5 geddon effects and you only run 2 flagstones? Having a second one in hand isn't useless, you just either drop it and fetch out two plains(which you often have time for in stax games where you are already locking them down, discard it to the diamonds, or drop it after you've geddoned or sac'd the first). I used to run 3 and would consistently wish that I was running a 4th. Especially with that many sac effects and land destruction. Also why only 23 lands? You want to have more lands in the deck to be able to handle the diamonds (and lets not even get into you only running 3 of those), and to be able to recover faster after a geddon when you dont' have the crucible.
There is no reason to drop the number of crucibles to 3, you are running a deck that has 12 cards that get remarkably better with a crucible out, 21 cards if you cound the cities, factories, and wastelands.
Bad suggestions, just because you think they add diversity and versatility, are still bad suggestions.
Ouch...if anything is a 4-of, Crucible is. I'd take 5 if I could.
Have you ever had a Trygon Predator across the board? If your opponent plays Thresh with these mainboard, he knows he's going to get you down with it and will do anything to protect it. Windborn Muse blocks it; the Muse is great. I guess if your Meta hasn't figured out the extreme power of Trygon Predator yet, Muse is less relevant. Moat also does nothing to Tombstalkers, Hypnotic Specters, Dragons, Angels...Moat doesn't complement to Armageddon...Factories and Maguses stay at home...all in all, I don't really like Moat for this deck. 5 Geddon-effects and 6 Prison-effects keep any creatures your opponent throws at you at bay.
I have often found having a second one in hand sucks. It's no disaster, but I often don't want to throw both on the board to fetch 2 plains, because that makes my lock more vulnerable, as I'm sooner out of plains. Meaning I mostly keep it in hand until I draw a Mox, and since he plays only 3 Moxes, it's no wonder why he cut down to 2 Flagstones. On the other hand, I've also found that drawing none sucks too. So I went from 3 to 4 and I'm trying that now, but I must confess I am considering dropping back to 3, which I'm pretty sure of, is a better number than 2.
I guess it depends on playstyle. Mine relies heavily on trinispheres for example, so I do need the 4-of there and the 4-of Mox. I know DeathScythe knows what he's doing, but I think it's really a different style of playing Stax, a bit more risky. No doubt it's better in the mirror though.
I do believe there's quite some playground with the lands though; how many Flagstones, Plains, Factories, Wastelands, two mana lands. Here you can make way for your toys like Kor Haven and Horizon Canopy (Maze of Ith and Tabernacle aren't land-lands, because they don't produce mana, they ditch nicely to the Mox though...yes I like to state the obvious ;) ).
@DeathScythe: since you have 2 Ravages, have you ever played with 6 Geddon-effects? Or is 6 simply too much? I guess this depends if your meta has alot of combo or not ;)
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
'I'd rather run Horizon canopy over the thrid Flagstone becuz you need a draw engine.'
I dont run a 3th flagstones so this would mean cutting something else ;)
'I think you should cut 2 smokestack for Windborn Muse because he is solid shut downs against dreadnought decks and espeically Icnorid combo. Also, cutting just one Crucible of the World for a Oblivion Ring would help against those dreadnoughts or Radkos pit Dragons.'
Tested the muses after i had a discussion with skeggi, I didn't like them so I threw them out of the window, Dreadnoughts aren't scary imo as you got 2 turns to awner it which should be enough. I also don't care about pit dragons I'm 12-1 vs DS atm (yes, the one win for DS was with a pit dragon but i drew 10 lands in a row).
'I used to run 3 and would consistently wish that I was running a 4th'
Your play style obviously is different than mine, the fetching plan is funny but im in a more aggro/aggro control meta in which I don't have the time to do that, and if I'm locking someone it doesnt sounds really relevant to do it as your oppo is prob going to lose anyway
'Also why only 23 lands? You want to have more lands in the deck to be able to handle the diamonds '
23 vs 3 diamonds is a good enough ratio imo, most deck run 25-26 using 4 diamond. I got to the number 23 only by tweaking but it works good enough for my liking, also throwing in more lands is a tad annoying as i have to cut something for it
'and to be able to recover faster after a geddon when you dont' have the crucible.'
it's very unusual for me to throw all my lands on the board i tend to keep a few in my hand to bluf (2cards in hand is mostly better than 0 cards in hand, plus I don't need them on the board anyway) or to recover from a mid/late geddon. If i'm forced to play a geddon it will also screw my opponent over (via prison or trinisphere depending on the situation) so i get the time to get rolling (yes if you draw crap you're as good as dead but isn't that normal...?)
'I know DeathScythe knows what he's doing, but I think it's really a different style of playing Stax, a bit more risky.'
even though you never met me in person or had a serieous long chat with me it's a tad flattering ;) And yes it's a bit more risky, but that's more my style, it's also not unussual that i burn my ass down to 1 for example. Also to compensate the risk factor is the funny fact that I know exactly what I can and cannot do (being judge is sweet and abusive) which also goes for my opponent so if he makes an error in tournamentplay I see it 99% of the times (for example some ass tried to sac his nether spirit constantly for my smokestack and a more stupid stax palyer would've allowed that, I'm not so kind)
'@DeathScythe: since you have 2 Ravages, have you ever played with 6 Geddon-effects? Or is 6 simply too much? I guess this depends if your meta has alot of combo or not ;)'
Never tried as I got no clue what to drop for the 4th geddon (or the 3rd ravages if I can get it for cheap like my other 2). And my local meta is to wierd to discibe with al the random things i hit (hence i'm building 2 casual decks to asswhipe those). I mostly test over there with a few people (who are about the same lvl as me) using proxies
You could drop your 4th Smokestack for instance. Running 3 usually does the trick just fine.
P.S. Improve your forum skills ;p
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I've seen that lil trick and yet to test it (I usually do the big testing in tournaments) as I first want a good sb and the sb skills, which are still crappish for me. Perhaps I'm going to give it a throw at the dutch nationals (the legacy one obviously not the standard/draft one ;)) and see what happens
P.S. I can't help I'm to lazy to qoute my ass of :P other forums I used (nedermagic and benelegacy) aren't really the best forums in the worlds so give me some time ;)
You need a draw engine. Play 1 or 2 Horizon canopy! Cut 2 plains you wont be sorry!
Consider playing 1 or 2 Blinkmouth nexus over mishra's factory For the reasons stated above.
Consider cutting one or two geddon efefcts for oblvion ring and maze of ith. also, cut a mox diamond and a wasteland for 2 ghost quarter. you should only need to geddon once before they taste the recuring wasteland/Quarter locket.
two canopy let you draw into your 'Gedon
Last edited by Peter_Rotten; 08-12-2008 at 02:05 PM. Reason: take it easy with the quote box
Hey, plz stop cutting mox diamond.
Its an obvious 4 of.
We want to cast 3-4cc spells early right?
We want synergy with geddon.. ect..
When i see a list with 5 spells (exalted and moat) requiring WW, and only 2 flagstones, 3 mox and 7 plains in the list, i consider its a joke.
(not counting aura of silence in side.)
I play 4 mox, 4 flagstones and 6 plains in my 25lands manabase and its still hard to unmorph my single exalted with this configuration.
There is simply no time to set up a comfortable Canopy draw engine; I need to play other lands at first instead of having the luxoury of saccing the Canopy every turn.
The Canopy draw engine is good mid - late game, where most of your lock pieces are already there, often you want to have played a Geddon-effect here already.
I'm against Maze of Ith since it doesn't produce mana, I'd rather play Kor Haven. Dropping a key-card like Armageddon for Maze of Ith is just plain silly. Second, Oblivion Ring is still a sideboard card in my book. I understand some people like to play it MB, and that's fine, it just depends on your playing style. But again, cutting a key-card like Armageddon is just plain silly.
This totally depends on meta.
Well perhaps you should try running 3 Flagstones and 7 plains then since you can't have 2 Flagstones at the same time on the table, the fourth one doesn't really help you getting to that second white mana.
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 08-12-2008 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Inflammatory comments removed.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.
Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!
I would like to site example of people playing with less geddons because the card is not that important if you have a draw engine. Look at Jonathan Rispal's stax at worlds. The guy must be good if he is playing at worlds and HE went 4-1. See: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...07/legacydecks
Look at the article by the wizard Chris Coppola: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/15962.html They don't even run armageddon!!
I forgot about tangle wire. I think we need to reintroduce that card into the deck as I know it is a bomb!!
i hardly have trouble flippin' the angel or digging my moat so considering it a joke is a bit harsh to say, perhaps you shuffle different than me and shuffle all your white sources on the bottom?
My manabase is very wierd at first sight I'm perfectly aware of that but I got to this setup through testing a lot (which is still going on for the record) and it fits MY PLAYSTYLE. And to be fair, yes manascrew happens in a few games but that counts for all decks doesn't it
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