[Deck] Survival

[Jak]

I agree with everything Di said. I would also like to add that Wonder wins games. If the ground is clogged like the mirror or Goblins etc, he is amazing. Gilded Drake is also nice. Just some suggestions. I have always like the blue splash for Brainstorm, Rider, Wonder, and Stifle.

[MattH]

Teeg is your strongest answer to any combo deck or a deck like Landstill or something.

What does he stop in Landstill? Just Force of Will? It's not like landstill is still playing FoF or Disk...I've been honestly very disappointed with how little he stops. No one is still playing Wrath, Humility, Moat, or anything like that. Even Enchantress usually only has one or two cards he stops. The main thing he kiboshes seems to be EE.

I've been fairly impressed with Kitchen Finks so far. 3 power is a good number; it can take out a Mongoose or a lone Factory, and it walks through a Deed fairly well. Finks is also way better against Goblins than Loxodon Hierarch ever was, although the goblins matchup still is problematic. I don't know if Finks will stay but they're definitely the best MD lifegain, if you want that (I'm tempted to sya they're the best lifegain creature period, but not as sure of that).

@Di: how are those Confidants? Are the tops enough to keep your life total from dropping precipitously? I guess you only have two 5s, one 4, and three 3s...maybe even a little better curve than black-with-confidant Threshold lists (four Force, maybe a Mystic Enforcer or Sea Drake or something), except they have a little more control over their draws.

[Illissius]

What does he stop in Landstill? Just Force of Will? It's not like landstill is still playing FoF or Disk...I've been honestly very disappointed with how little he stops. No one is still playing Wrath, Humility, Moat, or anything like that.

UW Landstill seems to be gaining in popularity relative to the Deed versions, and those do have Wrath and Humility. Still, Teeg doesn't seem too impressive. They'll just Swords or counter him and then use the rest of their removal on your other creatures, so you've gained not very much.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Teeg stops Engineered Explosives. Almost all Landstill runs it.

[Nihil Credo]

UW Landstill seems to be gaining in popularity relative to the Deed versions, and those do have Wrath and Humility. Still, Teeg doesn't seem too impressive. They'll just Swords or counter him and then use the rest of their removal on your other creatures, so you've gained not very much.

In my experience, Teeg is actually quite strong. It's sort of a one-two punch with Survival itself: if you resolve Survival, everything but Humility and EE is a blank (because you'll just overwhelm them with recursion); if you resolve Teeg, everything but Swords is a blank (of course, unlike Survival here you need the rest of your hand to provide pressure). Sticking either can give you a short window to punch through with Tarmogoyf or Doran.

Neither is a blowout, but I have a hard time thinking of a card that just says "I Win" against Cunning Landstill (Winter Orb maybe?). The purpose is to increase the density of must-answers in your deck, and Gaddock Teeg does that pretty well.

Anyway, speaking of the Landstill (both UW and 4C) matchup, has anyone experimented with a Gigapede in the side? Even without Wonder/Brawn/Glory it shouldn't suck too bad, getting owned only by huge Decrees of Justice (Humility you must Grip or lose anyway, Crucible is sided out, and you're happy if they waste an Extirpate on it). Kinda narrow, though.

Hmm, more train of thought: Glory seems to deserve a spin. Get to five mana (easy), drop Gaddock Teeg with Glory in the graveyard, that sounds hot. Getting it in the graveyard here doesn't seem easy, but I guess you can just hardcast it and basically demand a Swords to Plowshares, which is OK if Teeg is about to show up. Against some decks you could do it with Magus of the Moon too - takes care of that pesky "float W (or B) in response", and unlike the other Incarnations you don't even need a basic Plains. Gimmicky, maybe, but for a single SB slot I guess I might as well try it. Heck, maybe I'll maindeck it in the slot left free by cutting the terrible Vexing Shusher; 3/3 flier for five mana is bad, but not completely terrible.

[Di]

What does he stop in Landstill? Just Force of Will? It's not like landstill is still playing FoF or Disk...I've been honestly very disappointed with how little he stops. No one is still playing Wrath, Humility, Moat, or anything like that. Even Enchantress usually only has one or two cards he stops. The main thing he kiboshes seems to be EE.

I've been fairly impressed with Kitchen Finks so far. 3 power is a good number; it can take out a Mongoose or a lone Factory, and it walks through a Deed fairly well. Finks is also way better against Goblins than Loxodon Hierarch ever was, although the goblins matchup still is problematic. I don't know if Finks will stay but they're definitely the best MD lifegain, if you want that (I'm tempted to sya they're the best lifegain creature period, but not as sure of that).

@Di: how are those Confidants? Are the tops enough to keep your life total from dropping precipitously? I guess you only have two 5s, one 4, and three 3s...maybe even a little better curve than black-with-confidant Threshold lists (four Force, maybe a Mystic Enforcer or Sea Drake or something), except they have a little more control over their draws.

Not all builds run black. In Landstill I face he stops Force of Will, Fact or Fiction, Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, and Humility. Given the fact that I sit across from Geoff Smelski (his list is here) every week, who happens to run all of those cards maindeck, it's quite important. I'd go as far to say it's the most important card in winning the matchup behind Survival. Post-board, the best strategy I have for winning against him is the two-card combo of Extirpate on Swords to Plowshares and stick Gaddock Teeg. Otherwise, it's much more difficult to win through something like 4 Wrath, 3 Explosives, 3 Humility and whatnot.

Confidant has been very strong, even more after the addition of Sensei's Divining Top. The curve is rather solid for it, but it still has the rare game where I'll bite it because of taking so much life from him in conjunction with fetchlands and Thoughtseize, but it typically doesn't happen as you find answers quick enough to win the game and negate the fact you're taking damage.

I just really prefer the raw card advantage over the random utility Burning Wish (the card it's most compared to) provides, and the fact that he is also a body is often huge for beating, Survivaling, and Therapy purposes. Burning Wish targets generally consist of destruction spells (Hull Breach or something, Chainer's Edict, Ruination, etc) maybe a discard spell, and a Regrowth and then something random like Primal Command. They don't provide card advantage, draw you out of land screw (although those with LftL can), draw you into Tarmogoyf (don't argue Primal Command, it's slow as balls :p) and doesn't draw you into Survival of the Fittest. I won't deny Burning Wish is a very good spell for the deck because it gives it utility that can't be found in the Survival engine, but the CA provided by a Bob is overwhelmingly better imo.

Hmm, more train of thought: Glory seems to deserve a spin. Get to five mana (easy), drop Gaddock Teeg with Glory in the graveyard, that sounds hot. Getting it in the graveyard here doesn't seem easy, but I guess you can just hardcast it and basically demand a Swords to Plowshares, which is OK if Teeg is about to show up. Against some decks you could do it with Magus of the Moon too - takes care of that pesky "float W (or B) in response", and unlike the other Incarnations you don't even need a basic Plains. Gimmicky, maybe, but for a single SB slot I guess I might as well try it. Heck, maybe I'll maindeck it in the slot left free by cutting the terrible Vexing Shusher; 3/3 flier for five mana is bad, but not completely terrible.

I've actually debated this recently because Glory would be really good not only against removal, but in forcing through damage as well. I just don't have the slot, or really the open mana, to justify him though.

[Jak]

I am liking the RGB list a lot, but I really do want to try out GBrw. Swords is a great addition because I hate losing to something like a Crusher, Vore, Stalker, Dreadnought, Enforcer.

I was wondering what the correct Creatures removal number would be? In RGB I run 2 Maw, 1 FTK, 1 BGH, and 1 Masticore. That has a lot of variety which I love, but with Swords, I should be able to cut some of those out. I am thinking FTK and BGH. Do you think this is correct?

[Solpugid]

It may be my random meta, but I've been incredibly happy with a 1-of mogg fanatic in my Gbrw and Gbr builds. He's never really a bad draw, with or without survival. He provides another cheap creature to sacrifice to therapy, wins you goyf fights, and performs random tricks (removing bridges, preventing jitte counters, etc.).

I've actually been testing fanatic in quirion ranger's slot these days. Although ranger combos well with rofellos and birds (and goyfs if blocking is somehow relevant), I've found him partially unnecessary lately. I rarely want to draw him when I don't have survival, and when I do I have better creatures to fetch. In a way he feels win-more to me.

I also disagree with the removal of all lifegain creatures, not so much because I think lifegain is essential (except in meta's like mine, which are ripe with random aggro) but because kitchen finks is an amazing creature in this deck. His synergy with therapy, for one, is hard to overlook, and he helps to stall the game until survival is drawn.

[Jak]

I like Ranger too much to remove him. He doesn't do a ton of things amazingly but he does a lot of things pretty damn good. Accelerating the first few turns, making large amounts of mana with Rofellos in the late game, makes Masticore awesome, allows guys to untap and block. He just does a lot of cool little things that do end up helping to win the game.

Fanatic does seem interesting since it looks like my mmeta is filling up with Ichorid. I just don't know what to cut. I like my list a lot and the only thing I am looking to try out differently is Burning Wish because they sit dead in my hand way too much. Also, the SB sucks.

I just don't like Finks. I can't see myself ever tutoring for it because it will only gain me 2 life. If I am really struggling against aggro, I would rather wish for Maw, or Kavu, or Masticore. He just is cute and when I played with a life gain slot, I never once wished for it. I can see it coming in handy against Burn, but I really don't care about that MU. Maybe if I was running Dark Confidant I would throw something in there but right now I don't feel the need. I am thinking about running Bob though, so maybe FInks will see play.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Survival

4 Birds
1 Ranger
1 Rofellos

1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shriekmaw
1 Masticore
1 Gilded Drake
1 Tradewind Rider
1 BGH
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Life Gainer

SB
3 Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stifle (or something)

This is what I am working towards building. I have RGB and GBrw built but just don't have the Trops. I may test this because Brainstorm is amazing. This is based a lot of of EATS, it basically is EATS. I like it though.

[Solpugid]

I can certainly understand your reasoning for keeping ranger, but if I have rofellos, masticore, and an extra creature to pitch I should already be winning. Allowing blocks also seems rather arbitrary in most instances. He has just been a tad underwhelming with only 22 to 24 creatures in the deck. Maybe if I was running 30...

I must admit, I almost never tutor for finks either. Like, once in every 5 games. I don't run it to tutor for, however. I run it to stall/beat face when I don't have a survival. Later on, if I have a survival, I can just pitch it for creatures which better fit the game state. His role reminds me of the niche wall of blossoms filled in the old rock decks (except, you know, finks beats for 3).

Burning wish has seemed way too mana intensive for me, and (as stated) demands too many SB slots.

[Jak]

I can certainly understand your reasoning for keeping ranger, but if I have rofellos, masticore, and an extra creature to pitch I should already be winning. Allowing blocks also seems rather arbitrary in most instances. He has just been a tad underwhelming with only 22 to 24 creatures in the deck. Maybe if I was running 30...

I must admit, I almost never tutor for finks either. Like, once in every 5 games. I don't run it to tutor for, however. I run it to stall/beat face when I don't have a survival. Later on, if I have a survival, I can just pitch it for creatures which better fit the game state. His role reminds me of the niche wall of blossoms filled in the old rock decks (except, you know, finks beats for 3).

Burning wish has seemed way too mana intensive for me, and (as stated) demands too many SB slots.

Ranger has been amazing early when I need an additional mana or I am stuck on 2 lands. Providing BB to cast Big Game Hunter or being able to activate Survival again. It is also nice to tutor up when I have Rofellos in play. Like I said, it just does a lot of cool tricks that help to win the game. It has never hurt me, only helpes.

I agree on the Burning Wish part. I have found it to be great, but not enough times. It really hurts my SB.

[Di]

Nice list Jak (seriously, it looks just like one of my EATS list), but you have Thoughtseize down twice, once in the main and once in the sideboard. My only gripe is running Wickerbough Elder over Trygon Predator. Elder is 5 mana to use, while Predator does need an attack step, but has evasion, and is recurring removal. That's really good against any deck with Counterbalance or Top.

[Jak]

Yeah, I haven't really tested it all out. Just Brainstorm. I also would probably run Wonder too. Trygon predator is amazing so that will replace Elder.

Also, Nimble Mongoose will probably become 3 Therapies (the ones that were in the board). I really would have more disruption main and it is a nice sac outlet for Confidant in case I do get low on life. Hopefully I'll be able to finish it soon.

[Di]

Also, your life gaining slot could be used towards either another Eternal Witness, Magus of the Moon, another beater, or better utility creature. Kitchen Finks, although incredibly good, is really unnecessary in the current metagame. Hell, I could justify running Murkfiend Liege in that slot over a life gainer.

[Jak]

Also, your life gaining slot could be used towards either another Eternal Witness, Magus of the Moon, another beater, or better utility creature. Kitchen Finks, although incredibly good, is really unnecessary in the current metagame. Hell, I could justify running Murkfiend Liege in that slot over a life gainer.

I agree with that. I was just worried about running Bob with some higher cmc stuff like Elder, Rider, combined with all the other 3 stuff. After playing with him a bit in GBrw, he didn't do much pain at all.

Well, since I will be playing with GBrw right now, I need some help on the removal. 4 Swords and 2 Maw are definites for me, but are more needed? I like Masticore a lot because it clears chumpers and it helps to hit stuff like DC, Hyppie, just little weenies that you see floating around. He also wins Goyf battles. I am also in love with BGH. He always finds a target. Remving a goyf, fetching a goyf and still attacking for 1. Awesome. I also like FtK because it hits pretty much everything. Most of the time it will take out a Goyf (land, instant, sorcery, creature) and hits everything else outside of Stalker, vore, and crusher. Only problem I have with all that is I am running the same amount of creature removal I had in RGB but I have added Swords. I want variety, but I do want slots in the deck that I can change out. I want room for Geese and Bob but running all that removal takes up space. What do you guys think are the must haves? I am too much of a "this helped me in one situation so I'll keep it" guy.

[Di]

I agree with that. I was just worried about running Bob with some higher cmc stuff like Elder, Rider, combined with all the other 3 stuff. After playing with him a bit in GBrw, he didn't do much pain at all.

Well, since I will be playing with GBrw right now, I need some help on the removal. 4 Swords and 2 Maw are definites for me, but are more needed? I like Masticore a lot because it clears chumpers and it helps to hit stuff like DC, Hyppie, just little weenies that you see floating around. He also wins Goyf battles. I am also in love with BGH. He always finds a target. Remving a goyf, fetching a goyf and still attacking for 1. Awesome. I also like FtK because it hits pretty much everything. Most of the time it will take out a Goyf (land, instant, sorcery, creature) and hits everything else outside of Stalker, vore, and crusher. Only problem I have with all that is I am running the same amount of creature removal I had in RGB but I have added Swords. I want variety, but I do want slots in the deck that I can change out. I want room for Geese and Bob but running all that removal takes up space. What do you guys think are the must haves? I am too much of a "this helped me in one situation so I'll keep it" guy.

My own kill base is 4 Swords, 1 Shriekmaw, 1 Big Game Hunter, and 1 Masticore. I cut a Shriekmaw (but would like the 2nd back in the deck) so I could fit other stuff in the deck, but I basically see Big Game Hunter as Shriekmaw #2, as a majority of the time they will have the same targets. Masticore takes the space of Flametongue Kavu. He's much more flexible than FTK and can kill hordes of creatures at once, not to mention at its worst you pitch him with Survival to pump your own Tarmogoyfs.

What does your GBWr list look like atm? Knowing this would help at least offer advice on what to cut/keep in order to fit everything you want in.

[Jak]

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Survival
4 Swords
4 Thoughtseize
4 Therapy

4 Birds
1 Rofellos
1 Ranger

1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shriekmaw
1 Masticore
1 BGH
1 Harmonic Sliver

Cutting FtK opened up room. I never hated drawing him because he always took down a creature, but I guess he was unncessary. I'll experiment with Goose more because I have always wanted it in my list. I will probably cut down on the Therapies and add a Magus or Teeg, whichever would be more effective in my meta.

[Di]

No Eternal Witness? That's the only glaring issue I see with the list. I suggest that get fixed lol.

[Jak]

No Eternal Witness? That's the only glaring issue I see with the list. I suggest that get fixed lol.

Ugh I usually play with 3 since it is so amazing and forgot to put it in. I was wondering how I could fit 3 Goose in so easily.

-1 Therapy
-1 Goose

+2 Witness

I am not sure how good she will be because with Burning Wish she was amazing. Taking that out hurt her a bit so I'll just have her as a 2-of for now.

And I'm trying a SB of this:

4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Open (Duress, Glory!, Engineered Plague, Chant, Life gain)

[Solpugid]

Actually, witness is awful with burning wish, as wish removes itself from the game.

Jak, since you seem to run wickerbough elder in blue version of the deck, have you tried running it in place of harmonic sliver in the white splash? I've had a number of scenarios come up where I don't want a triggered removal ability (e.g. I have a survival, they play a deed; I want to kill it before my opponent can untap and pop it, but harmonic sliver will force me to kill my own survival).